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 This Allowed From Staff/Imps?

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Bonney

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PostSubject: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Tue May 15, 2012 8:53 am

NO COMMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



[img][/img][img][/img][img][/img][img][/img]
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smasher

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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Tue May 15, 2012 11:39 am

HAHA!
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Star



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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Tue May 15, 2012 6:23 pm

Aww, you made him mad.

At least he didn't steal all your stuff and kick you out of your clan, that's what happened to me last time I made an imp (god now) mad.
Rolling Eyes
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Lordlava

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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Wed May 16, 2012 9:42 am

There appear to be 3 issues in these screen shots that are worth commenting on.
1) The killing of an imp/god in the arena or anywhere else for that matter
2) The leading of a low ranked player to get FKs in the Black Stronghold (BS)
3) The cursing of a player by an imp or a usurp

1) The killing of an imp/god in the arena
I can not comment on the circumstances of how the killing occurred. I am guessing some sort of LQ but it is probably not really important. While the execution of an imp/god in the arena is technically not illegal, it is a high risk strategy and only to be attempted by the brave or the foolhardy. Vengance is not an attribute encouraged in admin but it is a human trait and can be very tempting for mere mortals. Remember that Loki was a demi-god who was bent on vengance against his adopted brother Thor.

2) Leading for FKs in the BS
Technically this is not illegal according to the rules on the forum (for some strange reason) but is not in the spirit of what was intended. I am guessing that the leading rule was relaxed here to allow players to get the ankh ammy but it is clearly being used for other reasons. As soon as I can get Ody to change the rules on the forum BS will be changed to a no leading zone as it was not intended to give new players a massive boost in experience via FKs on Shiva and Ice Earls.
Unfortunately this means that ankh ammies and the seyan shrines will be harder to obtain in future.

3) Imp or usurp cursing a player
Technically it is not illegal for an imp or usurp to curse a player. They do it all the time as part of LQs and other forms of general entertainment. It can also be done as part of a warning to a player that they have or are about to cross the line into an illegal or grey area. As explained above, the leading in BS while not technically illegal is what I have for some time called a grey area in the leading rules and is beyond what was intended when the rule was relaxed.
However ......
If someone has crossed the line or gone into a grey area of the rules it is better to talk to the player rather than exterminate them, at least in the first instance. Staff and admin are encouraged to talk first and execute later Smile
Vengance is actively discouraged, as tempting as it may be.

It appears to me that while nothing technically illegal was done, several boundaries have been stretched and I trust that this will encourage all parties to think first about the spirit and interntion of the rules and guides rather than a strict interpretation of what is legal or illegal.



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Bonney

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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Wed May 16, 2012 1:43 pm

There appear to be 3 issues in these screen shots that are worth commenting on.
1) The killing of an imp/god in the arena or anywhere else for that matter
2) The leading of a low ranked player to get FKs in the Black Stronghold (BS)
3) The cursing of a player by an imp or a usurp


1) Arena is Arena as Far as it goes!!!!! Full STOP!

2) BS no Leading area!!!!!! Full STOP!

3) Cursing a player!!!?????????? i understand this but then again LL....
A player in Battle getting cursed by a IMP when no LQ active, He did Alot more than just Curing But anyway
All i see in this is 1 rule for 1... o And another rule for others....
Hes A respeted IMP as far as i see it or did...


EDIT:

. ok what ever not botherd but a sorry for the loss of items and time used in helping some1 play would do ... Razz
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Elffin

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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Wed May 16, 2012 3:16 pm

If somebody wants to spoil the game for themselves, why not let them, they are only fooling themselves (Killing icies and Shiva at low rank, and yes i have done it myself on my character i was rushing to seyan) but why punish everybody else because of that?

Elf.
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tommytom

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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Wed May 16, 2012 3:24 pm

how come theres no curse where you spells icons should be?
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Bonney

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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Wed May 16, 2012 7:21 pm

Its good to have ice /shiva fk for a newbie i think to build a bond with new chars.....
get them intrested after doing afew quests

This post was showing the facts that are in it... i saw this as a player in the situation i was in... lol ... perfetic! if that was revenge! ? lol
Basketball Basketball
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Redman



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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Wed May 16, 2012 9:05 pm

Here are my comments on the 3:

(1) Killing a imp/god trying to do an event does nothing but likely upset the person trying to put on the event. However, there are measures that said imp/god CAN do in order to prevent such deaths from occurring. The choice to prevent or allow death is up to the imp/god, so while upset, the blame shouldn't be put back on the player because, heck, its always fun to kill an imp/god as a player. (and yes, I have been on both ends of the stick for this case. I still try when LL leaves the door open Twisted Evil )

(2) Leading in the BS has always been allowed and it doesn't seem like it has ever been a problem. What it does provide is an invaluable opportunity for a lower ranked character to see a high ranked character in action which will likely give the lower ranked player a "goal" to work towards. The experience and Ankh ammy are just a nice rewards on top of the opportunity.

(3) IMO, imps/gods should be able to play the game without emotion...period. Especially emotion stemmed from a PREVENTABLE death. This is clearly a case where emotions were not left aside, and the imp put a player involved in normal game play (outside of an event) into potential harm by cursing said player that was engaged in combat with very high ranked and strong NPCs.


Bonney is taking this a lot better than I would if I was in his situation, and I'm grateful to have such good players in our community. Bonney's action within the arena is acceptable method of game play that was preventable, and revenge from an imp/god on a usurp character without a means to defend himself, especially since Bonney was engaged in combat with a powerful NPC, brushes the lines of power abuse. An arena death is one thing, but who would be to blame if Bonney and others had died in the BS due to that curse? What if the new player quit because he/she died from this situation? I'm just glad Bonney and team survived (I assume this since there wasn't a 3rd screenie after a death) and made everyone aware of the situation.
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Elffin

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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Thu May 17, 2012 12:51 am

tommytom wrote:
how come theres no curse where you spells icons should be?

I think the pic was taken a short time after the curse was cast, as Seppy was there he would have been able to dispel (Or Bonney could have done it himself) then scrolled up to take the screenshot.

Elf.
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Loki

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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Thu May 17, 2012 1:06 am

Seeing Bonney has put up these Screen shots and LL reply to them

I think the gaps that have been left out by Bonney should be filled in

No LQ was in progress at the time

Screen shot 1

Bonney and Seppy was there spelling up Turps to get f/ks (not against the Rules)
I left them to it
I went into arena to work on some Thralls for later LQ's etc
Bonney came in and attacked me while I was doing this
At the Time I was Unspelled and working on something else
Any attack on a player or Admin whilst doing something there is unethical.
Akin to getting involved in a fight between others
Yes it did upset me for his blatant attack
A fair fight death is one thing a coward attack is another
He soon returned to a Non Attack area
He also started GA even before I said anything
The Icies I spawned are in that area
Did I make them attack there where he could not fight back........ NO
I said Bye making him think I had left them there and he could only recall
Although soon after that I became Visiable to transfer the Icies......also not mentioned
Did I attack him at any time there.......NO
Did he Die........NO
Did Seppy or Turps Die.....NO
Did he lose anything.......NO
All over the Screen Shot is "After I killed Loki"......... shows he did that for his EGO and show off
And did it in an unfair fight while I was occupied and had not agreed to the fight
He then stated he would take Turps to BS to get fks on the Icies and Shiva
That area is a leading area for higher Ranks to take lower ones to get Ankh Ammie and Seyan Shrine
Not really to take newbies to get fks on monsters that are well out of their range normally

Screen Shot 2


Notice Bonney health 100%
Notice Seppy is 99%
Notice Turps is 100%
Notice also even after the Peacekeeper cursed him he is still Stunning the Icies
Notice also the Curse does not appear in the spells above his avartar
Notice also his Avatar is an Undead although states "ice Gargoyle"
Notice also at no time did he "Lose Focus"
Yes I did Curse him
Did Bonney Die........NO
Did Seppy Die.........NO
Did Turps (newbie) Die....NO
Did he lose anything there except a Gpot and about 10 min of game play.......NO
Did I do any thing to him other than Curse him..........NO

All this is because I hurt his EGO in front of others shown by again "after I kill Loki" on the Screen Shot


In Temple

He was told "if you have a complaint sent it or post it to LL"
He brought this to Forums in the 2 Screen Shots and not just put in a complaint to LL about me
He continued to argue the point
I did not Kick him or Punish him for arguing with Admin at any time (which I could have done within the Rules)
All he has done is now make BS a Non Lead Area
So getting Ankh Ammie and Seyan Shrine is now harder for all
The only persons I answer to are the GODS
If anyone has complaints about Admin then send it to the Gods
It is up to them to hear both sides of the incident and make a ruling

Foot note

Ethical and fair play is encouraged although cowardly attacks and not expecting a reprisals of some sort by anyone is very foolish
Trying to or killing Admin (unless in fair fight, Clan fight or PvP) is something that shows Lack of respect to Admin simple

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Elffin

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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Thu May 17, 2012 3:56 pm

2 points just to clarify.

It says "Ice Gargoyle" above Bonney's head because he has a Ice Gargoyle selected or has just looked at it.

There is no Curse icon because it has been dispelled, the picture is taken a short time later where Bonney would have scrolled up before he took the screenshot.

I personally am on the fence here, I am friends with Bonney , and also get along well with Loki. What happened happened for a number of reasons. Bonney could not of known that Loki was afk or busy doing something where he was distracted from his screen, Gods and imps have a ability to make them invulnerable to attack so really Loki should have had that on especially as he was standing in a Arena. In another game i play (Ultima Online) Richard Garriot aka Lord British forgot to be in god mode one day and got killed in front of all his loyal subjects. i believe he did have a fit, but eventually saw the funny side of what at the end of the day was a silly mistake on his behalf. Should Bonney have spoken to Loki first and asked him if he wanted to duel? yes probably, but we don't always think first and act later, sometimes it's a spur of the moment thing that we find funny, but the person on the receiving end doesn't.

Hopefully this will blow over soon, and it will be a pity if they change the leading rules in BS just because of things that happened there, There is still a danger of death to all involved if it goes horribly wrong so i think it should stay as it is.

Elf.
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Bonney

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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Thu May 17, 2012 4:16 pm

i dispelled the curse....

so what ur saying is all i lost was 10mins play time.... i send the bill in post for my time....


lol... like i said i killed him no lq cause he was sporning monsters round us transfering and saying.. hehe... like its funny?
... lol... anyway loki i told to, go away from bs cause we helping newbie....
he carryed on doing stupid stuff for about 5mins jumping icey over me ect ect.. got hit alot.. lost 600 mana ...lol due to all the curses and stuns.... i dont give up that easy when fighting(helping) then we recalled due to this...
i started bowing in his face in temple he said to me stop it being a stupid kid... or somthing lol,
check it all if u want to waste ur time.

anyway like i said Basketball Basketball Basketball


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Redman



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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Thu May 17, 2012 6:42 pm

Imps/gods have plenty of other areas to practice usurp, etc. Use the miles of greenland.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that you better be ready for anything when you step into the area, imps/gods included (again...ask LL Razz haha). Calling one person's surprise attack a "coward" move doesn't make it any less AWESOME. Kudos for anyone willing to step in the area and take a brush with a fake death. Double kudos to anyone who beats the oblivion out of me or anyone else in the areas or on the streets. And losers (of fights)....don't complain and whine when you die. Be mature and just accept it, learn from it and come back with vengeance.

Does that mean that the surprise attacker should be blocked by a mob of monsters?.........NO (This is even covered in Aranock rules "Staff will consider punishing a player for harassment when: 2) Anyone purposefully blocking the route of another player be it in the pentagram quest, the labyrinth or in town quest areas, regardless of method used to do so.")

Did Bonney have a chance of a REAL DEATH because of the later revenge in BS?.....YES, a very good chance since the attacker was invisible and a peacekeeper
Did the other two have a chance of a REAL DEATH because of the later revenge in BS?.....YES
Could they have lost anything?.....YES, items and HP/Mana/End points that he could NEVER recover. (Why does any player deserve to have their character ruined because one individual got overwhelmed by their own emotions?)

No leading parameters were set in the rules so anything Bonney was doing there was perfectly legal and DEFINITELY not punishable by a REAL DEATH FOR THE WHOLE GROUP.

Aranock needs an admin team that is respectful in both game play and punishment. That is the only way we are going to grow this community. Actions like this ruin the game for everyone. It will just run away the already small crowd we have. Admin team are here to encourage, help and provide fair discipline when necessary, not violate their own rules (1, 2 and 3 for this case). Players need to know the admin team can be trusted with the powers granted to them and it seems like that is no longer the case.
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Star



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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Fri May 18, 2012 6:54 am

I agree with Redman.
It's not that hard to find an appropriate and fair punishment for people breaking rules.
In the end we should trust the admins to do the right thing regardless of emotions instead of power trip and go nuts over something so insignificant...
The "problem" here was an imp thinks a player won't take a shot at him if he sits in the !!!!!!!!!!!!!*ARENA*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Like Redman said, this is not a serious matter, the arena is fair game, Loki could have gone anywhere else to practice making monsters... Rolling Eyes
This would be a real problem IF somehow he killed the imp in a designated no pvp area, but since he was sitting in the arena trusting his green name will protect him I dare say he deserved the death... And in the end what's an arena death going to do to him?

The only problem I see here is the imp getting mad and trying to ruin a players good time on the game. Getting a peacie curse while trying to kill 2 earl icies is not a funny joke being played by an imp. It was done with malicious intent to kill the player, whether he died or not the intentions are clear. All I can say is good job for him dealing with the curses and harassment from an invisible player and still killing them.

If there does become a rule about leading, I'll still take people through because that would be the dumbest rule yet... To change something that's been the same after all these years with no valid reason. Black Stronghold has always been a leading zone. That means whatever a high ranked player wants to do with a low ranked player there is FINE, whether it's help them get armor, or helping them gain exp. It's the same idea as U1 and U2, there is no difference at ALL. If you make Black stronghold a no leading zone, make everything else as well. I'm pretty sure you weren't thinking high players could only help low players get rpots/gpots in U1/U2, and not any FKs or poles or any experience boost whatsoever. Also might as well take the leading role out of labs, since I guess you had no intention of high ranked players doing all the work in them to lead low ranked players to the end.

In the end apparently leading is allowed in all these areas, but you aren't allowed to help the player you're leading through the area get a few free kills and poles... More invisible rules being made up and players being punished for them. (No more leading or helping get experience in lead-able areas)

Anyways, I'll keep leading in the areas that have been lead-able for YEARS and keep helping new people with those FKs and poles, if you want to ban me now go ahead just means 1 less player in a dwindling community...
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Ferret



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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Fri May 18, 2012 7:58 am

Redman and Star have it spot on. (not neccessarily about the leading - that's a whole other debate)

As a long time staffer of both Astonia V2 and V3 I can atest that it was always a pre-requisite of being appointed staff, that personal loyalties, friendships ar enmities were left at the door.

I fully realise that Anarock is it's own evolved game now, but many of the original Intent team's ethos and ideas are still in place here, and staffer/Imp impartiality should be - and I assume are - an absolute given.

Anyways, may I just state that coming back to this game, under it's newer skin, has been very nostalgic, and although it is now much harder than originally, it is still fun. Razz
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Lordlava

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PostSubject: Re: This Allowed From Staff/Imps?   Fri May 18, 2012 8:11 am

I suspect that this topic has gone just about as far as it can in a constructive manner.

Regardless of the merits or otherwise of Bonney's comments or Loki's comments or anyone else for that matter about the particular incident, I have had a general concern about the capability of low ranked players to be able to get those high ranked FK's and of a low ranked seyan to be able to get the Shiva Shrine.

I have considered for quite a while that this was open to abuse and it is certainly not the intent of the game for a master sgt should be able to get a 40k free kick. So this had to change.
I have also thought that a seyan should have to earn the notches on his/her sword and the BS shrine should be difficult to obtain, not an easy trophy for a mast sgt who is still wet behind the ears. So this also had to change.
This particular incident has just prompted me to act.

The only concern I have is for the ankh ammy. This has normally been obtained and arguably esential from about sgt major or 2nd lt onwards. A sgt major can group to a captain and a good captain with the right equipment can do BS, with a bit more of a challenge than a noble and so this is still possible to achieve.
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