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 Punished Innapropriately

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Shadowfax



Posts : 21
Join date : 2013-08-17

PostSubject: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:09 am

I was multi-logged to transfer items from on character to another before I went to bed around 12:00 AM on August 19. Both of my characters were killed multiple times by some sort of staff member, imp or god. I lost most of my Shadowfax-Items to the Trader standing near the clan hall platform. This is evidence that I was standing on the clan hall platform. I lost ALL of my Beckinsale-Items. This is also evidenced by the fact that my grave was erased from the multiple deaths. I have a screenshot of Beckinsale entering the game to whom Shadowfax was going to give them items (gpots i had several). And evidence that Beckinsale did not even spell Shadowfax, which was the only rule that I could have possibly broken in Rule 5. This is extremely frustrating and disheartening. I left playing League of Legends because of its poor community and was enjoying the time I had relaxing playing this game and have just received an arbitrary stressor. I Have to wake up for a shift at 4:30 AM and wanted at least 4 hours of sleep but will receive 3. It is a huge inconvenience, and the staff member should be held responsible for rash actions. Said person should have waited to see what I would do. They did not wait for any evidence to punish me.

5. DO NOT MULTI-LOG

Multi-logging to power train an alternative character is forbidden (We do know when a proxy IP is being used). However, the only exception to this rule is to transfer items from one character to your alternative character. This must be done in town or clan halls. The transferring of quest items from one character to any other character is not allowed and is a bannable offence. If caught multi-logging in any quest areas such as pents or random dungeons but not limited to, you will be punished.

Spelling your own character by the use of multi-logging, regardless of where either of the alts are found is still illegal.

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Thrice



Posts : 212
Join date : 2010-02-07

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:37 am

Hey Shadowfax, same thing happened to me. There is a rule that you can not spell your alts, if you do...you explode. I was unaware this rule extended to heal so when i transferred an item from one alt to another i healed him and we both exploded. Trader then looted and I lost my prison set and a couple of uniques. Only reason I can think is perhaps you spelled an alt? even heal or maybe light?

If thats not the case then not too sure.

Thay being said, same thing happened to I Believe Malice and/or Rush? correct me if i am wrong. There were 2 others and LL said they both got there stuff back after the trader looted.

Me on the other hand. I did not get my items back. But i'm sure you will. Its just me admin usually kick in the balls.

Good Luck
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Shadowfax



Posts : 21
Join date : 2013-08-17

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:44 am

This would make sense as to why no one would respond to me in game. It is very possible I healed Shadowfax seeing as I just came out of pents.

I have been reading threads seeing I can't sleep and read one where Lordlava stated, "Repeat offenders, who have been clearly warned, get a self destruct flag set on those repeat offending alts and death is the consequence. Harsh, possibly! But it has only been applied to those who have repeatedly and knowingly broken this rule! I do periodically trawl throuh the logs looking for the offending spellers."

I have never clearly been warned, and I am not a repeated a offender. Perseus warned me the other day to re-read the rules regarding leading etc, I do not call that a clear warning. Also I told Perseus that Beckinsale (my alt that exploded with me) is my brothers char. To put this self destruct-flag on these characters is just arbitrary. I asked my brother last night if he wanted to get on and do Tower with me. Since this flag was on us we would self destruct as soon as he was willing to get on and play with me. I understood Lordlava's "rant" in the thread he wrote. However, I would like this rule to be reconsidered. The self-destruct flag is a very harsh punishment in itself. It should be explained to anyone and everyone that it is on them and what will happen. The idea of any law enforcement should not be to punish people but to discourage others from committing infractions before they happen. This would be solved by informing others that if they even did so much as tried to cast light on their alt they would lose their lives and equipment. Putting a self-destruct flag on someone without their knowledge is a type of "It told you so" enforcement. Second I do not play my brothers Character very much but it is not against the rules. Putting the self-destruct flag makes it so we cannot play together. From what I understand if we are on different computers our IP addresses should be different and thus the Staff would know whether I am double logged or playing with me brother. Please have enough trust in your players to not put such a rigid and authoritarian implementation as Self-Destruct flags.
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Twinsix



Posts : 259
Join date : 2012-10-13
Age : 25

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:44 am

I'm sorry you died. We do not have the ability to just kill players unless you spell yourself through another alt. We have the ability to kick you off of the game and that's about it. The imp and gods may have that ability but it is not part of our policy to kill the players. They would probably kick you off of the game just like a staffer would. But as far as the sleep thing goes, you might want to go to bed around 9 or so, that way you get a full 7 or so hours sleep. Only you control what time you go to bed.


Thrice- I hope you realize that complaining on the forums and game isn't going to help your cause. That exploding rule was a nice little touch, wasn't it? I bet it discourages players from spelling their alts.
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Shadowfax



Posts : 21
Join date : 2013-08-17

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:55 am

Please do not condescend, my sleep habits are my own. I am a nurse who works night shifts and a sleep schedule is not like yours. In this instance I had just gotten off two night shifts. on Friday and Saturday night. I sleep for fours hours when I get home and the 4 hours before the following morning shift. I like to play something to wind down for bed.

This is all besides the point. The evidence points towards the fact that I must have done something as simple as heal my alt. Hardly an offense. When I think about Game Rule 5 about not spelling alts, I think about someone sitting in the Temple double logged, and someone lagging out from pents to spell themselves. Healing myself is part of the clarity that apparently someone did not seem fit to deign upon me. For reasons I that are unclear I was put on a very harsh self-destruct list.

This leads to my second suggestion. Under Rule 5, please state That ANY spelling of alts, stressing ANY WHATSOEVER will have harsh consequences. I rather just be banned for a week than have to deal with getting rare armor back that Godfather gave me.
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Thrice



Posts : 212
Join date : 2010-02-07

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:02 am

I didn't think i was complaining? Just trying to help Shadowfax establish how it happened.

To answer your question of "nice little touch isn't it? That depends on if reducing the community is a nice touch? Personally i would rather players like Scofield to still be around but they left as a result of this rule. Just my opinion.

Perhaps learn the difference between an opinion and a complaint Twinsix.

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Motoko



Posts : 1229
Join date : 2009-09-14

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:09 am

Considering people have been spelling their alts for years, the rules do need to state something about it as killing the players is a pretty harsh penalty.

Hopefully the gods can give you your stuff back.

If not, let me know, I can help out...
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Thrice



Posts : 212
Join date : 2010-02-07

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:13 am

Shadowfax i took it into my own liberty to try and help you. I managed to pull some tricks and kill the trader. Im sorry but there was no special armour that you mentioned?

I do however have a couple huge saph rings, 2 huge emmys, a gold red belt, annk ammy, and 5 or 6 gpots. This was everything on the trader. Ill be on in a bit if you would lie the items.
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Andy



Posts : 590
Join date : 2009-09-08
Age : 27

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:29 am

1. I would think the rules are warning enough
2. Heal is a spell, no?
3. Too my knowledge you get the no-spelling-alt flag set if you commit an offence with multi-logging.
4. The penalty is designed to be harsh to prevent people from breaking the rules. We've had people still spell their alts after they've died and still wonder why they're insta-deaths...
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ultraman

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Posts : 114
Join date : 2010-06-14
Location : New jersey, Armpit of the nation

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:40 am

just for clarity, does this only happen if you've been flagged as an offender? My kids still have chars but have not played in awhile. If they were to come back on with me, will we all die as a result of one spelling another? Or is this a flag placed on the account manually?
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Andy



Posts : 590
Join date : 2009-09-08
Age : 27

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:44 am

If you let the gods know if your kids com back i'm sure we can arrange something. I cant tell if a flag's been set on you so i dont know if this applies to you, unless you've recently been caught spelling an alt or you've already died from spelling an alt (I will try to find out for you asap)
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Shadowfax



Posts : 21
Join date : 2013-08-17

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:07 am

To respond to Andy's 1,2,3,4

1. Staff, please stop with the condescending. Yes rules should be enough, however when implementing the Self-Destuct flag, knowledge may change actions. Simple law enforcement psychology. Informed people make better decisions. Isn't that the put of this all? Saying, "Rules should be enough,' does not solve the problem. So please Stop.
2. I Disagree. Colloquially in V2, Thule, Aranock etc, Spells consists of: Bless, Protect and Enhance Weapon.
3. I have not committed a Multi-Log spelling offense, I committed a leading offense and was in no way informed that a simple heal would kill two of my hard earned characters. If I would have known, I would put extra effort into thinking about spelling my alt in anyway whatsoever.
4.Harsher penalties actually rarely produce better outcomes. Instead it creates more bitterness. Please respond to my ideas not just reiterate what the rules are. Regulation is needed but simply restating rules and condoning all the actions of staffers does not create a better community. I feel I have valid points, address them.
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Thrice



Posts : 212
Join date : 2010-02-07

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:35 am

^
What he said
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Andy



Posts : 590
Join date : 2009-09-08
Age : 27

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:47 am

1. Players need to realize this isnt a job for us, we don't get paid, we don't have working hours and we are doing this out of our own enjoyment of keeping the game alive. This means there will be downfalls (e.g. periods where no help can be given in game or some situations where punishments differ due to time-zone differences and staff not having had time to communicate)
2. If you right click heal it says "spell: regenerates health, mana cost 25hp" It also repeats this on the website
3. flags may be put on as initial punishment (after a player has rage quit for being muted or following a /kick due to unreasonable language in public chat). I can see you are the newest forum account created, so it would be near impossible to inform you without divulging a private punishment to another player to "pass the message on" all well knowing that player may also forget to inform you
4. The penalty will ensure you don't spell one of your alts again, no?
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Shadowfax



Posts : 21
Join date : 2013-08-17

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:59 am

I feel you are being rather defensive. I am talking on a Forum where things are discussed.... opinions are shared.... ideas are created... etc. If you choose not to see any of my points as valid, fine. I find it hard that someone cannot see a difference between "Spelling ults" and casting heal once during a item transfer. (The point of the rule is to avoid an alt being able to do something he would otherwise be incapable of doing alone.)

Can you not deign to any of my thoughts?
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Fazza

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Posts : 453
Join date : 2011-10-01
Age : 27
Location : Queensland, Australia

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:07 am

Shadowfax wrote:
I feel you are being rather defensive. I am talking on a Forum where things are discussed.... opinions are shared.... ideas are created... etc. If you choose not to see any of my points as valid, fine. I find it hard that someone cannot see a difference between "Spelling ults" and casting heal once during a item transfer. (The point of the rule is to avoid an alt being able to do something he would otherwise be incapable of doing alone.)

Can you not deign to any of my thoughts?
Code wise, if a spell or skill is used that has the IS_SPELL flag it will trigger anything associated with it.

Code wise, ANY spell will trigger it.

Thats just how it works.

Honestly. If you wanted it to JUST work for Prot/Ew/Bless... Code wise they COULD be under a flag called IS_BUFF. But honestly.. Thats alot of work and screwing around for something that only effects a minority.

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Last edited by Fazza on Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thrice



Posts : 212
Join date : 2010-02-07

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:11 am

May I suggest to admin that if they get the required 7 hours sleep each night then it would create a more productive environment. Perhaps if you changed your sleeping pattern and went to bed at 9, a much more collaborative discussion would occur.

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Thrice



Posts : 212
Join date : 2010-02-07

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:25 am

I think the much bigger picture here is that admin are quite condescending and immediately take a defensive stance towards an issue a player has. The players need to be able to communicate with admin much as admin need to communicate with the players.

If its a brainstorm to make the game better admin are very susceptible to helping out and providing genuinely good input. If it criticism then your scalded and told to get back in line.

I asked admin a question relating to whether an action was illegal or not. The admin told me that if i need to ask that question then I need instructions as to removing my pants before I went to the toilet. He then said of course it was illegal.

I then presented the same scenario to Lord Lava and was told the action was in fact Legal.

How are the players suppose to respect admin when there rude and argumentative towards us. The admin i talked to didn't even want to consider my position. You can't come to the best response without viewing it from both sides.

I lost respect for admin a long time ago.
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Andy



Posts : 590
Join date : 2009-09-08
Age : 27

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:11 am

The fact is we cant cater to everyone's personal needs, as it would require a huge amount of reworking to the codes and the rules page would be indefinitely extended. The main rule people have problems adhering to is 12. Respect a staffers decision. This doesn't mean publicly ridiculing a staffers decision on forum and in game, this is why they appear to be more condescending. It also doesn't mean playing one staffer's decision off against the others.
In your case, Thrice, you asked a staffer on his decision to which you got an answer you disagreed with (as it wasn't stated exactly the same as your scenario on the rules). You then went higher up and, what seems without informing of the previous decision, asked someone else for theirs. This went on for at least 4 attempts until you got the response you wanted where you then publicly proclaimed you were in the right, whereas for a fact i know 3 staffers believed you to be in the wrong. This isn't behavior we believe to be acceptable and by consistently bringing it to the public's attention constantly, while preaching your innocence I understand this as a breach in rule 12.
I must also inform that staffers have lives outside of the game which influence playing times and mood (in and out of game). I have recently had many an issue that may seem insignificant to others but have majorly challenged the balance in my life, this may give a reason for my personal recent change in stances and I can't use this as an excuse, but alas it's impossible to keep personal life and game life separate.
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Thrice



Posts : 212
Join date : 2010-02-07

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:50 am

I was aware I was guilty of something from day 1 Andy. I expressed that to LL immediately after being caught. MY argument was to attempt to mitigate the punishment by establishing that there were some flaws in the rules and that this simply should come into consideration when assessing my punishment.

When i tried to explain this admin immediately got on your high horse and took the defensive stance we have just aforementioned. Admin seemed to deal in absolutes, either you did it or I didn't. Black and white. My point is that more often than not there are grey areas. Similar to Shadowfax's recent incident. Yes he has breached a rule and has been punished by death. Grey area is...He healed an alt. Yes it's a spell. Yes its illegal under the rules. But is the intention of the rule really to stop this kind of behaviour? I believe the intention is to disallow players from gaining an advantage by using superior spells. A simple understand of both sides would make admin realise that this should not be worthy of the same punishment as some1 lagging out and spelling an alt.

I was never contesting my innocents I was simply attempting to reduce punishment. Unfortunately no admin (other than yourself Andy) bothered to listen and immediately chose to disregard all my views.

The only way I could demonstrate to admin how blind they were was to make up a hypothetical situation similar to my own only clearly legal to see if admin would be so blind to persist with saying something was illegal. I proved my point. Unfortunately the way I went about it was not not flattering to the admin which is why i chose not to disclose their names.

I could go on all day about my issue but i don't wish to hijack Shadowfax's post and quite frankly your as sick of hearing from me as I am listening to myself lol.

Point of this post is that your not robots admin. Apply some reason and consider both sides. We accept you have commitments and this is of no real significants to your life, but you choose to be admin for a reason. With great power comes great responsibility hahaha

Peace

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Odysseus

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Age : 31

PostSubject: Re: Punished Innapropriately   Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:11 am

I would like to comment in response to some of the things discussed on this thread....

Shadowfax, it is my understanding that the nospell flag was set on your alt Urstur on the 15th August for double logging and leading, the evidence I am referring too suggests that it was placed upon you after a warning for the DL.

The noflag command was designed to tackle both leading and double logging because these players need to spell their alts to achieve their tasks.

If we miss out heal, then that is one spell these people can use whilst double logging to avoid the punishment but still providing an effective ability to lead. In addition Including the heal spell also allows us to stop players healing their alts during clan fights. I believe that this is justification enough not to exclude heal from the punishment, and it is impossible to have the punishment command determine different 'types' of heal before applying itself

At the time this command was implemented, there was a hard core group players that consistently broke the leading and DL rules, despite being warned, kicked, imprisoned and temporary banned. Our staff availability meant that we could not provide cover 24 hours a day which left large periods of time that these players disrespected our community and took advantage of other players by gaining benefits and items that they couldn't get and by ranking faster than them.

We did not feel a responsibility to provide this group of people with yet another warning, so we took immediate action and kept quiet about it, and the consequences for them was justly deserved. This command has all but stopped that practice.

I take on board your suggestions Shadowfax, that it may be time to provide people with due warning that this flag has been set upon them now that our initial objectives have been achieved. The only criticism i have however is that this flag is only set after a player has already been warned for breaking the leading rules, and so many could argue that if a player chooses to purposefully disregard the warning, then they don't have the intention to behave and they may deserve the consequences. Also, this command allows a player to be caught and punished for leading and double logging when there are no staff online, which was a request from our community via the many complaints we have received.

I understand that you where playing when you where tired and never thought that healing an alt would cause you to break the rules and trigger the nospell punishment.

I too am a nurse and I understand the need for you to play after a tiring shift in order to forget the things that you've seen and done during the day, and I apologize that few people in this thread seem sympathetic to that. I am extremely sorry that you have lost valuable armor that cannot be easily reclaimed. I know that if I where to apply a punishment to you manually for this instance i would not have caused your death, but this is an automatic system which others have voted to be of good ethical standard, and unfortunately a break in the rules did occur however accidental, and if you died multiple times it does allude to the fact that you may have casted multiple spells on your alts and not just heal as the death cannot be triggered otherwise.

I will consider how to move forward with this new command taking into consideration some of the negative feedback left here, and I will advise my staff if i decide there should be any changes. In addition I will keep an eye out for your items Shadowfax, and if i legally find any then i will return them as i have little need for such items myself, perhaps other players will show the same courtesy.

Ultraman, you have my assurances that you and your children will not be affected by this command, those who pre-warn us that they will be playing with family and relatives on the same IP are not punishable by leading and double logging rules, except where it can be proven that the player is lying.

I will not comment on other cases mentioned on this thread, as they come from publishers who this rule was purposefully designed to stop, who's actions have lead to the creation of the nospell command in the first place. There is much anger expressed at the creation and subsequent use of this command, but no anger at all expressed towards the rule breakers who's names you know all too well, who's illegal actions you have witnessed all too often and who appear to comment freely here defaming our team.

From the evidence that I have seen, our staff handled this situation correctly. They did everything they where asked to do by their Gods.

Thread closed

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