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 AT rebalance

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Asmodeus



Posts : 483
Join date : 2012-12-22

PostSubject: AT rebalance   Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:18 am

Ok we need a rebalance of general/fdm AT areas.

Here are the results of my test.

Skel respawn is around 7minutes, scroll holding skel respawn is around 11-12minutes.

I can as an earl hara using stun blast methods, kill the room in around 1m30sec.

Stump an earl AT on dpot stated that it took nearly one gpot and half a dpot to clear 3 rooms. Something is definately wrong there.

I averaged around 22k per scroll given the rng and high-low results. That means that given the respawns I can grab 20-24 scrolls in an hour therefore 440-528k per hour. I average 800-1200k per hour in pents and have done so since fdm. ATs average 300-800k per hour in pents. They most likely cant make much more than 100-200k in that area in an hour. What is worse is that I can probably make as much exp or slightly less in ltgen given that the skels spawn nearly twice as fast.

What is the point of this place if it isn't viable?

I have heard a really dumb logic to this issue. It was stated that the 12min spawn time is intended in order to give slower killing races the time to clear room. The issue is that you will ALWAYS find yourself having to clear room twice for a scroll spawn if you are a fast killer. If you are not, you will come back to a room with fully respawned skels. Only people disadvantaged by this are fast killers which makes no sense. There is no value to this addition at all. The logic is also quite flawed.

Suggestions

Re-balance skills in order to allow melee characters to actually kill these faster. Fdm skels have 600+hp and can heal about 300 per cast. They have atleast a good 8 heals in them probably more. Overall that is 3000hp per skel to bring down as a melee class. Seems ridiculous to me when you have 8 skels in there.

Fix the scroll spawn rate so that it matches normal skels.

Reduce spread on scrolls. I makes no sense that FDM scrolls can give 7k-33k exp.


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Lordlava



Posts : 3955
Join date : 2009-08-23
Location : The Land Down Under

PostSubject: Re: AT rebalance   Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:29 am

Reasonably suggestions supported by clear stats that may be facts (I have not tested them to confirm).

Story let down by negative comments which are playing the person and not the issue.

Quote :
I have heard a really dumb logic to this issue

Quote :
The logic is also quite flawed

Quote :
Seems ridiculous to me

Quote :
I makes no sense

It is an unfortunate part of human nature that people are about 10 times more likely to remember negative things than positive things.
You wrote a good story here that was let down by a few negative statements.

You do not have to agree with the development team and you are free to make positive suggestions to change and improve the areas or to undo changes already made. However, if you are looking for a positive result to your suggestion then stick to the good 95% of your article and omit the negative 5%.
The reader will be more inclined to respond favourably and you are therefore more likely to get what you want and everyone will feel better about it.
Note it is not a guarantee of change but just changing the probabilities.


Asmodeus, even though this is your article, this is not aimed specifically just at you but I am going to try and change the whole tone of comments and discussions on the forum.



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Asmodeus



Posts : 483
Join date : 2012-12-22

PostSubject: Re: AT rebalance   Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:13 am

Lordlava wrote:
Reasonably suggestions supported by clear stats that may be facts (I have not tested them to confirm).

Story let down by negative comments which are playing the person and not the issue.

Quote :
I have heard a really dumb logic to this issue

Quote :
The logic is also quite flawed

Quote :
Seems ridiculous to me

Quote :
I makes no sense

It is an unfortunate part of human nature that people are about 10 times more likely to remember negative things than positive things.
You wrote a good story here that was let down by a few negative statements.

You do not have to agree with the development team and you are free to make positive suggestions to change and improve the areas or to undo changes already made.  However, if you are looking for a positive result to your suggestion then stick to the good 95% of your article and omit the negative 5%.
The reader will be more inclined to respond favourably and you are therefore more likely to get what you want and everyone will feel better about it.
Note it is not a guarantee of change but just changing the probabilities.


Asmodeus, even though this is your article, this is not aimed specifically just at you but I am going to try and change the whole tone of comments and discussions on the forum.




I get your point but there is also a secondary reason why I made these comments. I really am bothered with attempts at insulting my intelligence. Not your comment but the reasoning and rigid defense of this "feature" by others. I have been told numerous different stories by 2 people which makes me wonder how voluntary this situation is. That in turn bothers me greatly as I am not willing to accept these flawed explanations. That is the reason for my comments.

I understand what you are saying here. My problem lies exactly in the method you are asking us to reply to changes. The culture of status quo and if its not broken don't fix it really bothers me. But beyond that situation, I can try as much as I can to minimize these types of comments as long as the effort and thought is put into the argumentation of the feature. Limiting exp gain for melee classes because magic classes can wreck the place is not a fair concept. We ask of players to choose the race they prefer but late officers and above see a great discreptancy in exp gains simply because we ask these melees to confront 24000hp per room. That is a long long fight and one that is not easy for most.

I have stated this before but your time is valuable and additions that do not provide alternatives are wasted time. AT is viable until Ltgen but then it becomes utterly unused due to higher mana, heal, hp and mitigation. Making it worthless for most melee and compared to sorc/hara/necro pent speed, worthless for spellcasters as well.

I only want for additions to the game to be worthwhile and not take up limited developable space. At the same time I want all races to be able to enjoy content that is created.
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Limitless



Posts : 47
Join date : 2015-07-06
Age : 32

PostSubject: Re: AT rebalance   Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:43 am

Ok, I'm not gonna write a book so you don't feel like I'm insulting your intelligence. Can you explain to me how in this post your are wanting to make things easier for melee to complete areas, encouraging people to play them more if it's changed, yet in the GC post you mock the admin for trying to beef up the GC so it isn't so "useless" as you point it out to be. A GC is meant to be a meat shield and not replace a "Tanking" class. Always had been, always will be.

Everyone is not created equal and this game is no different. Some races can clear areas faster then others, but in the end ALL races can complete them.

Play the race you enjoy the most and look forward to new areas like AT. My clan still goes here and to be honest, the ones I see here the most are a Warrior and a Seyan.

/rant off
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Supaguard



Posts : 11
Join date : 2012-08-05

PostSubject: Re: AT rebalance   Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:55 pm

I appreciate the changes the development team has made to AT but I do agree with Asmo that some further testing and rebalancing is in order. It is not viable for lower ranks as an alternative to pents, and even at higher ranks, one can make more XP penting per hour easily. I would greatly appreciate it if the development team of Aranock took another look at this and possibly offered some sort of difficulty multiplier for the higher level AT areas or reduced the respawn time. Possibly offering better rewards in chests in higher levels may help too.

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Asmodeus



Posts : 483
Join date : 2012-12-22

PostSubject: Re: AT rebalance   Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:36 pm

Limitless wrote:
Ok, I'm not gonna write a book so you don't feel like I'm insulting your intelligence. Can you explain to me how in this post your are wanting to make things easier for melee to complete areas, encouraging people to play them more if it's changed, yet in the GC post you mock the admin for trying to beef up the GC so it isn't so "useless" as you point it out to be. A GC is meant to be a meat shield and not replace a "Tanking" class. Always had been, always will be.

Everyone is not created equal and this game is no different. Some races can clear areas faster then others, but in the end ALL races can complete them.

Play the race you enjoy the most and look forward to new areas like AT. My clan still goes here and to be honest, the ones I see here the most are a Warrior and a Seyan.

/rant off

I will attempt to not reply to one of your numerous flames and I hope you stay on topic as I am considering your post as a valid thought and not just a flame.

My way of analyzing features is based on various categories including fun, difficulty vs reward, reward, relevance, tedium, balance and functionality.

How do my suggestions allow for melee classes to further participate in AT?

- Re-balance skills in order to allow melee characters to actually kill these faster. Fdm skels have 600+hp and can heal about 300 per cast. They have atleast a good 8 heals in them probably more. Overall that is 3000hp per skel to bring down as a melee class. Seems ridiculous to me when you have 8 skels in there.

Right now the area is focused on survivability of mobs to create downtown and in some way determine exp/h rates beyond the general rng of scrolls. My issue lies with general and fdm areas of the AT specifically. Skels having around 600hp and being able to heal so much really implies that in order to kill reasonably fast, one needs a stun and an aoe damage dealing ability. In this situations looking at general kill speed you would have the following.

AH
Necro
Sorc/Seyan
Warrior
AT

My issue with this situation is that ATs and Warriors are the slowest penters. If AT is to be considered an "alternative" albeit less effective than pents, it should be so. AT right now punishes warriors and Arch templars in the later levels. Both races cannot sustain stuns without external elements such as potions. Their killing speed is also somewhat lower due to lower WV or solo spells. What it means is that these two are limited in their speed due to mechanics which replicate their disadvantage in pents. By re-balancing mob stats at these levels, we could increase the general exp/h rate for melee classes in order to make these areas viable for everyone which they aren't.

One idea is flagging the area so that when warriors/temps use the portal, skels cannot use heal or something. Or providing a valuable melee kill speed buff for such an area to make things fair.

-Fix the scroll spawn rate so that it matches normal skels.

This is a problem for everyone actually as it effectively makes the gen/fdm section pretty useless. The intended purpose does not do what is intended and instead punishes players.

Reduce spread on scrolls. I makes no sense that FDM scrolls can give 7k-33k exp.

The Rng also makes these two sections unattractive as most races require drugs to complete this and the possibility of getting significantly less exp/h to somewhat lower exp/h compared to pents makes it unattractive as well.

If you have an issue with what I said in GC topic, please comment there and I will elaborate. I will add to this later as I am still at work. Cheers.
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Lordlava



Posts : 3955
Join date : 2009-08-23
Location : The Land Down Under

PostSubject: Re: AT rebalance   Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:32 pm

The original concept for the Abandoned Town was to have an area different to the pents to add a small amount of variety.
It was supposed to gives a bit less exp than the pents and provide something the pents did not, in this luck and chests.

The chests and scrolls gave future optionality to add other items.
The luck gave the only real source of repeatable luck outside of RD.
I know luck has no value to some older players who gave themselves mega luck as privates. However for newer players or for those who did not exploit the private bug then having some luck source may be useful.
I have not tried the higher areas so i can not comment on the difficulty.
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Asmodeus



Posts : 483
Join date : 2012-12-22

PostSubject: Re: AT rebalance   Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:09 pm

Lordlava wrote:
The original concept for the Abandoned Town was to have an area different to the pents to add a small amount of variety.
It was supposed to gives a bit less exp than the pents and provide something the pents did not, in this luck and chests.

The chests and scrolls gave future optionality to add other items.
The luck gave the only real source of repeatable luck outside of RD.
I know luck has no value to some older players who gave themselves mega luck as privates. However for newer players or for those who did not exploit the private bug then having some luck source may be useful.
I have not tried the higher areas so i can not comment on the difficulty.

Rd scrolls give 1000-4000 luck, while AT scrolls give like 20. I find like 10-16 luck scrolls per hour in rd.

If you are willing to look at balance issues, I will test and chart the areas and provide you a dataset that will inform my belief in the need of rebalancing.
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