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 Review and data analysis of abandoned town

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Asmodeus



Posts : 483
Join date : 2012-12-22

PostSubject: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:33 pm

http://www.filedropper.com/atbalancesheet

You may find the spread sheet with my tested info at that link.

In order to properly inform a change and re-balancing of AT, I have (with the help of a few people) tested out AT in order to see just how much exp/hour can be obtained by each race and in order to compare each level. I will use a standard research format for analyzing the data and will provide the data set as well. Keep in mind this is a basic data set, I could be much more thorough but it would require access to tools I do not have (ie. God).
Methods
3 runs of 4 rooms per rank with an AH earl with maxed 241-251 mod c2, stun, b2. For each run, time, respawn times, exp, luck and other variables. The process involved some statistical tools and calculations. I used a basic excel spreadsheet with some standard calculations and statistical knowledge. For kill speed of the ltgen, gen and fdm area I asked for Supaguard, Nyandere, Ayumi, Botar and Cosruni to help out. This provided data for all current races.
And important thing to note is that all these characters have all relevant skills maxed out and have used a variety of stat boosters such as gpots and dpots. These stats do not reflect the situation of character which are still ranking and may in fact falsify some statistics. For example, the only reason why an AH is able to clear gen/fdm so fast is simply because of a stun c2 b2 stun b2 b2 rotation which cannot be achieved unless you have maxed out stun. Mods lower than 230 will not allow for the second b2 in rotation and add another amount of time to the clear rate. It is important to note that these clear time are by players who have mastered their class and their strengths.  Given this caveat, exp/hour rates are inadvertently inflated and would not properly reflect actual gains.
Kill exp was added and corrected in order to be closer to reality but it may be on the low side to be safe. Avg skels per room was used in order to approximate the kill exp per room clear but the skel amount may vary by either room or even by play style. Furthermore, another corrective tool was added which accounted for walking, spelling, click delay, etc. This involved a overall 15% penalty to gains to account for moments of idleness, server backups, spelling self, moving, messaging and all other activities that are not pure killing or grabbing scrolls. It is likely that this penalty should be higher due to randomness or spawns and due to a voluntary calculation that spawns occur every 6minutes for areas under general which is untrue. The spawns occur each 6.5minutes with means that one spawn should be deducted additionally from the count and would reduce rates but I am still unsure if this should be used in the calculations.
Data
Looking at the progression of stats we can see that there is a larger increase in mods in both cols, brig gen and fdm. All others seem to have a pretty linear increase in mods. Beyond that data shows that there is a great variance between minimum and maximum obtained values from scrolls. Depending on the rank, the max value scrolls can vary from ~250k per hour to 600k per hour. Given rng and statistical principles, these fringe rates are incredibly rare but this gives you an idea of how possibly unreliable town can be. Theoretically you could get 34k from scrolls in majors in an hour or get 279k as well.
One other interesting piece of information is the general stats that the skeletons have. It is very interesting to see they have immunity, concentrate and meditate. All 3 stats are generally along the same base/mods as the other general stats and may pose a problem especially around later ranks where melee classes may have limited to no capacity to stun/warstun skeletons which then reduces the kill speed significantly.
Another interesting piece of data is the kill speed of optimal to near optimal builds. It was shown that Seyans earn between 91 and 49% of optimal exp rates, warriors earn between 100 and 38% of optimal exp rates and arch-templars earn between 51 and 20% due to time to kill (TTK). From the data AH, Sorc and Necros can potentially kill within scroll spawn time and have full clears. However, the 3 test players were very skilled in the use of their race and may have used optimal techniques which are not necessarily conventional knowledge. This in turn may have allowed them to reach full clears.
Analysis
The immediate issue that arose in this dataset is the significant decline in exp rates for melee classes such as Seyan, Warrior and ATs. Their TTKs varied between 2m40s – 5m49s for gen and 4m4s – 9m54s for FDM. The TTK for ltgen was similar in all races except for sorc and AT. The sorc speed was related to poor teleport placement which in conjunction with stealth reduced kill speed in test run. ATs take nearly 3 times longer to clear a room in ltgen, between 2 and 6 times longer in gen and between 2 and 10 times longer in FDM. Arch Templars appear to make between 51% and 20% of the optimal exp rate in the last 3 areas of the town. Both seyans and warriors suffer from a penalty to their exp rates yet not as pronounced as for Templars. In no way are these proportions applicable to pents which is the other exp gaining method available at that rank.
Using Time corrected exp rates which include corrected kill exp, ATs make an hourly rate of 90k in fdms which is equivalent to one solve in uw barons (an area they can solo on dpot like the one used for this test). An efficient Templar may reach rates of around 600k per hour in barons and probably higher with spell sets. Warriors and seyans may also reach this exp rate and most likely surpass it. Comparing these rates to town, seyans make at least 3 times more exp in pents at that rank, warriors make 3.5 times that amount and Templars make 6times the amount. Spell casters and necros may make anywhere from 1.5 to 3 times the amount in pents. In all likeliness, both general and fdm areas are in no way competitive forms of exp. To the point where ltgens provide more exp for melees with less difficulty. Despite a clear advantage for spell casters and necros, the town provides much less exp than pents can provide at a much earlier point.
The following issues appear evident.
1.       Exp rates are disproportionate
2.       TTK is extremely disproportionate
3.       Skeletons and scroll skeletons have different spawn rates
4.       General and Fdm have double the spawn rate for scroll skeletons as opposed to other areas
5.       Skeletons have high mods of meditate, concentrate and immunity which effectively reduced TTK especially for races that rely on melee without being able to use c2/wc perpetually.
6.       The degree of variance in scrolls may discourage players as the immediate reward is not high enough.
7.       Exp rates seem to stagnate at around 250-300k for scrolls from brig gen to fdm. While potentials seems highest, even theoretical averages does not seem to differ much.
8.       On a basic level, warriors, seyans and Templars lack the capacity to effectively clear a room of healing npcs by design. Wc requires endurance which would then require greps in order to sustain making it near impossible to sustain. Warriors may not have raised their spells or ss gear to adequately dispatch multiple rooms of high immunity, healing npcs. Seyans have the most capacity of the 3 but still lack in overall kill speed due to the mana cost of both b2, stun and c2.
9.       The door areas are not properly marked as non npc and may result in a single skeleton block the entry which greatly raises the TTK especially for melees.
10.   Entry hallway skels make the portal exp scroll irrelevant as walking back will most likely cost you a much more lucrative scrolls. Therefore players will remain in the areas walking back towards first room.
11.   Single spawn points may in fact limit spawns which then negatively impact the speed of exp gain.
12.   Layout for certain rooms are not beneficial for AOE tactics.
13.   Lower ranks have significantly high degrees of curse which may limit lesser ranked players from participating.
Proposed solutions
1.       Exp rates are disproportionate
Reduce variance which makes scrolls easier to predict which in turns allows for easier and more efficient fine tuning of exp rates.
2.       TTK is extremely disproportionate
Find ways to increase melee TTK without affecting spellcaster TTK. Such ways may include reducing hp of skeletons to above blast2 threshold. Removing concentrate which limits total hp per room to more manageable levels. You will find a table of b2c2 thresholds and suggested hp ranges which allow for lower levels of hp and therefore potentially higher TTK while not affecting spellcaster TTK since they cannot 1hit blast. Keep in mind 251 mod is around the highest achievable mod without SS gear or prison gear.
3.       Skeletons and scroll skeletons have different spawn rates
This has a potential of desyncing spawns which overall reduces exp rates.
4.       General and Fdm have double the spawn rate for scroll skeletons as opposed to other areas
While this appears to be a feature that serves to facilitate melee race’s experience, it is shown that warriors and Templars will have to fight with respawns which makes it very difficult for them to even get the scroll in the first place. Have more time on scroll respawn only allows a second set of mobs to appear. The only thing it does is reduce the exp rate of AH, sorc and Necro. In both AH and sorc cases, it is pretty tedious and extremely challenging to reproduce top killing speed without specific knowledge of appropriate stealth and stunning strategies. Necros seem to have it good as well but test sample explained having received a large amount of crits which may impact speed. Overall, necros would appear to fall behind if spawn rates were similar to lower areas allowing only sorc and hara to gain a potential 340k boost which still puts them in about 30% less exp gains than pents with significantly more tedious gameplay.
5.       Skeletons have high mods of meditate, concentrate and immunity which effectively reduced TTK especially for races that rely on melee without being able to use c2/wc perpetually.
See #2
6.       The degree of variance in scrolls may discourage players as the immediate reward is not high enough.
It appears that players have expressed a general dissatisfaction with low runs which does not push them to return. Gains are indeed minimal in low runs and even avg/the. Avgs are somewhat on the lower side depending on race vs pent gains.
7.       Exp rates seem to stagnate at around 250-300k for scrolls from brig gen to fdm. While potentials seems highest, even theoretical averages does not seem to differ much.
Difficulty continues to raise but the exp rates seem to remain within those bounds when taking only scrolls in consideration. Given that most races cannot complete the highest rank at full clear speeds until at least noble, it makes it very useless. Most players report staying in magen/ltgen and others have expressed a desire to have gen/fdm removed due to inefficiency. All in all, there is no added value to current gen/fdm areas and they are significantly less efficient than ltgen or pents. Overall, unused real estate.
8.       On a basic level, warriors, seyans and Templars lack the capacity to effectively clear a room of healing npcs by design. Wc requires endurance which would then require greps in order to sustain making it near impossible to sustain. Warriors may not have raised their spells or ss gear to adequately dispatch multiple rooms of high immunity, healing npcs. Seyans have the most capacity of the 3 but still lack in overall kill speed due to the mana cost of both b2, stun and c2.
Related to TTK issue. Could increase potency of melee aoe attacks or simply reduce stats of monsters being killed.
9.       The door areas are not properly marked as non npc and may result in a single skeleton block the entry which greatly raises the TTK especially for melees.
This is a build issue and could be easily resolved as long as all doors have at least a 3x5 area around door tile in order to prevent single target forced melee which increases TTK significantly for melees.
10.   Entry hallway skels make the portal exp scroll irrelevant as walking back will most likely cost you a much more lucrative scrolls. Therefore players will remain in the areas walking back towards first room.
Remove hallway skels, put signs and let newbies die if they get to that point. Worst case put teleport point inside the first large room and place skeletons in hallway. So that people do not need to fight through the corridor everytime if they want to use the teleporter. Also increase value of exp scrolls from teleporter.
11.   Single spawn points may in fact limit spawns which then negatively impact the speed of exp gain.
More spawn points?
12.   Layout for certain rooms are not beneficial for AOE tactics.
Tables and such but that is a build issue.
13.   Lower ranks have significantly high degrees of curse which may limit lesser ranked players from participating.
Simple balancing issue. Lower ranks tend to have lower mod res/imm which blocks access to area. Maybe lower curse on major/ltcol rank.
My final suggestion is to simply make random scroll drops the way to go. This will still be random and will still be rng based but would actually make the area more random and potentially fix some issues. Make one scroll drop guaranteed and the rest rng based. Could easily raise exp rates and you could justify lowering max exp from scroll by a bit.
I strongly believe that when areas are not used, that they are not very well done. Why does no one pent in earl icies? Because exp/difficulty/speed are not balanced, much easier and faster to pent uw barons. Why does no one use general/fdm areas? Because they are vastly ineffective when you add difficulty. If they are unused, changes should be made or area should be put to better use in my opinion. I think that while town should not be a 100% pent alternative, it should at least account for 75-80% of rates. If it doesn’t what is the point? Providing an AFK leveling experience? Rules are actually against afk leveling which is basically AT is now. Drop in there check back in 3 minutes, rinse, repeat. I don’t think that’s the envisioned function of the area.
Reduce TTK, improve rewards and balance stats to allow for faster melee TTK. This will greatly change the discrepancy and provide more space for players to play instead of simple maintaining a subpar function which promotes afk playing.
Thank you for your patience in reading this post and checking out my table.
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Asmodeus



Posts : 483
Join date : 2012-12-22

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:12 pm

Please excuse the formatting, not the most advanced forums we have here Razz
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Bill



Posts : 79
Join date : 2015-05-25

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:29 pm

This analysis is pretty spot on, I'd like to add comments to the issues Death has mentioned since I've observed them all myself.  I'll just list the ones I feel like I have something to add to, the rest have already been explained well enough.

3.       Skeletons and scroll skeletons have different spawn rates

This is rather inconvenient for people who want to maximize efficiency, and especially punishing to classes (mostly melee I would guess) which kill the skeletons staggered rather than all at once like a hara or sorc would with b2/poison.  If you can get ahead of the spawns and work your way back through killing the skeletons as they spawn, this greatly increases your overall clearing speed.  However, when you have to wait on the scroll skeleton so long that the entire next room of normal skeletons spawns and meditates this method is effectively ruined.

I feel like this is poor design because it ruins a slightly more advanced strategy, one that encourages more active play rather than the passive AFK levelling mentioned in the original post.

4.       General and Fdm have double the spawn rate for scroll skeletons as opposed to other areas


I get the impression, through things said here and there that this is intended in order to limit the experience gains from these areas to prevent them from being too competitive with pents.  Maybe I'm completely mistaken, but if that's the case it seems a little counterproductive, or at least it's implementation is too harsh as it completely removes any incentive at all from doing these areas.  Why put something in with no reason for actually doing it?  I suppose the poles are pretty decent, and if that's the only purpose these two ranks serve then it's better than nothing.

6. The degree of variance in scrolls may discourage players as the immediate reward is not high enough.

I, personally, don't see this one as an issue.  People are going to find out whether they're efficient or not, and if they are actually efficient but just require a certain amount of time invested to even the variances out I don't feel like that's necessarily bad.

8. On a basic level, warriors, seyans and Templars lack the capacity to effectively clear a room of healing npcs by design.

I can't speak to warriors or templars, but being the person who provided the seyan numbers I feel like there are things I could have done differently to optimize the numbers a bit.  This was my first pass, and I think a couple of other skills being maxed may have made a difference.  I do think the numbers work well as a baseline however, and I question the logic behind needing a basically maxed out character  on a dpot with soulstone gear to effectively do these areas which are, by design, less efficient than pents.

9.       The door areas are not properly marked as non npc and may result in a single skeleton block the entry which greatly raises the TTK especially for melees.

To add to this, some areas are marked differently than others.  One door might have a single space in front of it, others might have a 2x4 square where others have a 4x2 square.  It's a little aggravating when you get boxed in because each one isn't the same.  

Really, I think a system of one way portals or ladders that place you in the center of each room is a much better solution than doors, but I don't know how practical it would be to make that change at this point.  That idea would also require going back to the start to be made worthwhile and less  of a hassle.


10.   Entry hallway skels make the portal exp scroll irrelevant as walking back will most likely cost you a much more lucrative scrolls. Therefore players will remain in the areas walking back towards first room.

Not much to add to this, but I felt like it was worth repeating anyway Razz

13.   Lower ranks have significantly high degrees of curse which may limit lesser ranked players from participating.


This is a bigger issue than is probably realized, in my opinion.  It puts you, at a low rank, in the position of choosing whether or not to build effectively for abandoned town or pents.  I don't think it's a good idea to limit options in this way.  

It's fine to have tough resistance requirements at higher ranks, by the time you're doing brig/magen abandoned town your probably building resistance up for end game activities anyway.  This isn't the case however at major or lt col.



As a final thought I think that it's probably important to define the purpose abandoned town is actually supposed to serve.  I get that it's not a pent replacement, but an alternative that is inferior in every way without really giving something of value aside from being a change of pace isn't actually an alternative at all.

The only reason I do abandoned town is so I can read reddit or play my piano or whatever else I feel like doing at the moment while grinding.
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Lazywarrior



Posts : 180
Join date : 2015-07-25
Age : 20
Location : Somewhere with a bunch of nekos

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:09 pm

Asmodeus wrote:
3. Skeletons and scroll skeletons have different spawn rates

This is rather inconvenient for people who want to maximize efficiency, and especially punishing to classes (mostly melee I would guess) which kill the skeletons staggered rather than all at once like a hara or sorc would with b2/poison. If you can get ahead of the spawns and work your way back through killing the skeletons as they spawn, this greatly increases your overall clearing speed. However, when you have to wait on the scroll skeleton so long that the entire next room of normal skeletons spawns and meditates this method is effectively ruined.

I feel like this is poor design because it ruins a slightly more advanced strategy, one that encourages more active play rather than the passive AFK levelling mentioned in the original post.
Give them all the same spawn time for a single area(all gen/fdm at 10 mins instead of just the scroll guys), but increase the scrolls exp to compensate for lost kill exp, its pretty annoying having them spawn at dif times.


Asmodeus wrote:
9.       The door areas are not properly marked as non npc and may result in a single skeleton block the entry which greatly raises the TTK especially for melees.
This is a build issue and could be easily resolved as long as all doors have at least a 3x5 area around door tile in order to prevent single target forced melee which increases TTK significantly for melees.
The no npc blocks were removed because of the ability to sit there and not even have to fight and another issue that let you clear it way faster than your rank should allow, the doors should be changed to portals if this is an issue.
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Asmodeus



Posts : 483
Join date : 2012-12-22

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:25 am

As discussed with Motoko earlier, I have a possible solution that will make AT fairly easier for melee classes while reducing somewhat the kill speed of spellcasters. This is conjunction with a slight increase in exp may make the area viable while not reducing pent supremacy.

Skel StatsBaseModSuggested Base
Weapon10017590
Resistance10017390
Curse100173100
Heal90163100
Bless100173100
Ew10017385
Protection10017385
HP585 300
Concentrate851580
Meditate9516860
Immunity95170120

In addition to some reduction to AV/WV/Weapon/HP/Conc/Med, the skels should receive a no stun barrier. This would make it impossible for Sorc or Hara to stun kill increasing the TTK to a probable 1m30 second. The large increase in immunity will serve to protect the skels from b2. So that it cannot be killed in one hit. The reduced hp and av/weapon wall will ensure that even ATs have sufficient attack power on own spells to most likely take them down within 2min. Raising heal will make sure that they can fully heal from the b2 and attacks to maintain TTK. 

I suggested to Motoko that he build one such template and have it tested. If it shows that there is a significant reduction in TTK for melees and a maintain of the spellcaster TTK. I think Gen and FDM (maybe ltgen) should have their templates replaced with this model paired with a comparable 6min spawn for scroll skels and a slight reduction in scroll values to account for increase in scroll rates. 

While i understand the desire to simply increase rates to save time and work, the reality is that it is not enough to make the area viable for melee classes without massively overpowering spellcaster exprates. I understand that this means going into 40x2-3 templates and changing manually but with such a change, if viable, itll be the end of tuning and working on AT for good. I think its a good trade off.
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Motoko



Posts : 1229
Join date : 2009-09-14

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:01 am

For now I will likely continue to band-aid this area until RD2 and and my current other projects are ready.

I increased the exp rate in the two highest ranks last night, more band-aids may come.

Your suggestion is fine and I know how to make the area easier for melees relative to casters.

I know the area needs a little work.
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Gambit



Posts : 31
Join date : 2015-05-20

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:24 am

All this effort for what is arguably the most boring area in the game is fairly amusing. Most people just afk in there and check back periodically from what I can see.
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Asmodeus



Posts : 483
Join date : 2012-12-22

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:06 pm

Gambit wrote:
All this effort for what is arguably the most boring area in the game is fairly amusing. Most people just afk in there and check back periodically from what I can see.


Glad its amusing. I was asked to stop antagonizing people and to respect poor development practices. In response, I spent a couple of hours doing this to prove a point. Point was proven and hence my experiment successful. 

Despite that yes it is a lackluster area and I was hoping for it to be slightly more active. Meh it seems.
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Motoko



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Join date : 2009-09-14

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:15 pm

Well, being an "afk farming" zone isn't really the worst thing ever right? You can't really AFK pent, people will get mad unless you're alone penting, but even then, i'd rather afk farm in AT then pents.

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Motoko



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PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:45 pm

Also considering adding a clan only teleport scroll to the center of abandoned town (courtyard area) to make it less of a pain to walk down to the higher ranks.

150 g per.

Thoughts?
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Lazywarrior



Posts : 180
Join date : 2015-07-25
Age : 20
Location : Somewhere with a bunch of nekos

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:47 pm

Motoko wrote:
Also considering adding a clan only teleport scroll to the center of abandoned town (courtyard area) to make it less of a pain to walk down to the higher ranks.

150 g per.

Thoughts?
Please yes, that place is a pain to walk to.
Can you add a waypoint for non clan members too?
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Motoko



Posts : 1229
Join date : 2009-09-14

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:49 pm

Lazywarrior wrote:
Motoko wrote:
Also considering adding a clan only teleport scroll to the center of abandoned town (courtyard area) to make it less of a pain to walk down to the higher ranks.

150 g per.

Thoughts?
Please yes, that place is a pain to walk to.
Can you add a waypoint for non clan members too?

I want people to join clans to kill each other.

Since the /transfer command was added there isnt much need for clans anymore.

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Lazywarrior



Posts : 180
Join date : 2015-07-25
Age : 20
Location : Somewhere with a bunch of nekos

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:51 pm

Motoko wrote:
Lazywarrior wrote:
Motoko wrote:
Also considering adding a clan only teleport scroll to the center of abandoned town (courtyard area) to make it less of a pain to walk down to the higher ranks.

150 g per.

Thoughts?
Please yes, that place is a pain to walk to.
Can you add a waypoint for non clan members too?

I want people to join clans to kill each other.

Since the /transfer command was added there isnt much need for clans anymore.

But purples... Sad (I have to be purple because of champ quest Sad)
Just make the waypoint scroll expensive, almost every other scroll already costs 100-200g more than the clan scroll anyways.
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Motoko



Posts : 1229
Join date : 2009-09-14

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:54 pm

Lazywarrior wrote:
Motoko wrote:
Lazywarrior wrote:
Motoko wrote:
Also considering adding a clan only teleport scroll to the center of abandoned town (courtyard area) to make it less of a pain to walk down to the higher ranks.

150 g per.

Thoughts?
Please yes, that place is a pain to walk to.
Can you add a waypoint for non clan members too?

I want people to join clans to kill each other.

Since the /transfer command was added there isnt much need for clans anymore.

But purples... Sad (I have to be purple because of champ quest Sad)
Just make the waypoint scroll expensive, almost every other scroll already costs 100-200g more than the clan scroll anyways.

Your tears give me strength.

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legacy



Posts : 31
Join date : 2016-01-01

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:57 pm

I like AT, it's a good alternative to pents, and people obviously like it as there is always peeps in there.

Please don't make the doors in between portals though, I do not want to have to create a new GC every time I go to a new room. (Yes I use a GC in AT).
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Bill



Posts : 79
Join date : 2015-05-25

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:46 pm

Yes please on the scroll.

Also, did FDM abandoned town today on my baron seyan. Used a dpot and ice cloak (only way I wasn't getting cursed) and made just under 400k in an hour for my trouble.
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Motoko



Posts : 1229
Join date : 2009-09-14

PostSubject: Re: Review and data analysis of abandoned town    Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:07 am

Bill wrote:
Yes please on the scroll.

Also, did FDM abandoned town today on my baron seyan.  Used a dpot and ice cloak (only way I wasn't getting cursed) and made just under 400k in an hour for my trouble.

Done, added a waypoint.
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