The stun issue

As most of the community is aware the most recent content update also introduced a proposed the following change to stun.

Quote :

Perma stun now lasts for a reducing duration. It is now more difficult to permastun an opponent indefinately

This has lead to alot of heated debate amongst players in game and I thought that it would be a good idea to bring it to the forums where a debate and discussion can be had about it in a proper setting.

Lets look at the issues first;

• 1) "permastun" the act of repeatedly stunning an opponent so they cannot fight back at all until they are dead or you run out of mana. The ONLY time this has ever been called a problem from the perspective of the community has been in purely Player vs Player environments.
  
  
• 2) the proposed fix to this is to reduce the length of time for each consecutive stun on a player OR monster. In this case it has currently been worked that the length of time for each stun is reduced by 20%. Lordlava said in game that it was 80% but I believe he was misinterpreted and upon testing I can confirm that each stun is reduced by 20% in duration.
  

The problems that have arisen because of the change:

The spell exhaustion on the stun spell and this is across EVERY stun as it is essentially a global cool down is roughly three seconds. I would just like to point out a few things using our good friend math.

Here is an example of how stun works in the game now compared to how it worked previously:

note: The testing for this experiment are done with 5 consecutive stuns on the same opponent excluding spell exhaustion

• Old stun
  
  10seconds -> 10 seconds -> 10 seconds -> 10 seconds -> 10seconds
  
  As you can see the old stun would in layman terms refresh itself for the full and complete 10 second duration
  
  
• New stun
  
  10seconds -> 8seconds -> 6.4seconds -> 5.12 seconds -> 4.096seconds
  
  As you can see after 5 consecutive stuns are have stunned him only for 4.1seconds.
  
  Now if we include that you have a window of 3 seconds where you are unable to spell AT ALL due to the 'global cool down'. The idea of stun falling off so drasticly is almost impossible to justify using it.

Solution

Alot of time and effort has gone into the most recent update however I feel that the stun rework was somehow misguided. The feeling I get from the change is to effect the PvP community is such a way that the meta shifts away from being a stun fest and moves towards good ol fashioned brawling.

I would like to propose the following solution.

Change the duration drop off from being 20 percent to 8 percent. "Why 8 percent?!" I hear you cry?.. Simple. It is a number that still has an effect on how stun will be utilized but does not take away from the fundamentals of playing a spell casting class.

Example:

• Proposed stun @ 8% reduced duration
  
  10seconds -> 9.2seconds -> 8.4seconds -> 7.78seconds -> 7.16seconds
  
  As you can see instead of losing 6 seconds from your stun after 5 consecutive stuns you have only lost 3. Why is it so important to have more time between stuns? Simple to cast spells. After the first 2 stuns you start to feel the strain of having to continually cast stun to keep the monster or player from attacking you.
  
  After 10 stuns you are now only stunning for 4.7seconds. which means AFTER spell exhaustion you have 1.7seconds to react buy either stunning again, which shortens the time even more or for casting a blast for example on a hara.

I feel that the magic spot for stun will be around 8-12%.. 20% is just way to high for stun to be an effect spell anymore. after the first two stuns you are already down to effectively 3.4seconds of spell time.

As always you are welcome to reply with your own thoughts and concerns.

Thankyou for taking the time to read this.

~Fazza aka snakebite

The games's mechanics have not been designed with a stun with diminishing returns in mind.
My maxed out sorcerer would still take a beating from double cursed ltgen gargs without stun. I think a change to stun is needed but not this :/

This change in stun makes in nearly worthless to raise and focus on because it will ALWAYS fail a player. If players want to beat stun in PVP, then they should raise immunity. That is the way the game was built and intended.

I have not tested this. When, if ever, does the diminishing returns reset?

Does this same diminishing returns work when a player is stunning NPCs too? If so, I see a lot of real deaths coming out of this change if a player uses the stun/curse pent method.

The purpose was to make it so that 1st stun does not always win and if you are mega perma stunned (in PvP or by a pack of marauding ghosts, then u have some faitn hope of survival.

A bit of feed back.

There were two issues
1) The amount of reduction of duration for 2nd and subsequent stuns
2) Resetting after stun runs out

I have changed the system so that I can dynamically change the stun reduction factor from 100% (no reduction) down to 50% (half the duration) per repeat stun. The game is now currently set at 90% and we can test and change this over the next few weeks until lock in on a final number.

The reduction factor is supposed to reset back to 100% if the stun runs out. This was bugged and was not resetting so the factor was getting ever smaller. This has now been fixed.
Have a test and see how it goes.

I believe that this issue should be solved by public opinion on the matter and that if the poll shows that the majority of Aranockers do not want stun to be changed it should be changed back. Why should the players who have to live with this decision not have a say in it? Also if we don't have a say in it we should at least have the option to get back the experience that we threw away into a now useless stun.

If anything Immunity should be raised. That way the users who rely on magic wont be affected unless they go pvp against others who are a match for them with a high immunity. Since the purpose of immunity was to balance the scales, just tweak that.

Does this only affect other players or does it apply across the board when fighting npc's?

I also think that if people had a problem with stun they should boost immunity. which is the reason for the skill.. now players with imm have an extra advantage because as our stun weakens with their imm it weakens with the stun ban.
Ishtar created each player the way he did for a reason of magical and fighter statistics, he gave fighters immunity to immun the spell attacks to haras and haras spell attacks to slow the fighters down. Real deaths have alrdy been caused because of this. and the gods change it but dont even use it? or play as a mortal. we are the ones suffering nothing should have been changed now warriors seyans necros and temps are unstoppable. no Need to try all these different ways to change it. Just keep it how it is and raise your stats as needed if your getting perma stunned hmmm i should raise Imm and te other stats that raise imm. Rable Rabble Rabble Stun Stun Stun without it Aranock is no fun!

I also want to point out that the only way that we can get support for this is by letting people know whats going on in game as most people dont go on forums. But it seems that some admin don't appreciate the fact that we have opinions and believe that since their opinions are different they can bully you into not giving your own. I think this is wrong and I also believe that I shouldn't be threatened by an admin because I feel strongly about my opinion.

Darkness wrote:

Ishtar created each player the way he did for a reason of magical and fighter statistics, he gave fighters immunity to immun the spell attacks to haras and haras spell attacks to slow the fighters down.

this isnt ishtar's game anymore. and immunity never stopped perma stun

i dont completely disagree with the change, it's an interesting idea... but there is 1 problem: arch temps can still perma-stun w/ WC.

it may need some tweaking, because it seems almost impossible to kill an AT w/ a sorc.

it does reset after the stun runs out. you can learn to time your stun

it doesnt make that huge of a difference. i think it should be given more time, and there should be more PVP fights to get a better impression of it

Thug wrote:

this isnt ishtar's game anymore. and immunity never stopped perma stun

i dont completely disagree with the change, it's an interesting idea... but there is 1 problem: arch temps can still perma-stun w/ WC.

it may need some tweaking, because it seems almost impossible to kill an AT w/ a sorc.

it does reset after the stun runs out. you can learn to time your stun

it doesnt make that huge of a difference. i think it should be given more time, and there should be more PVP fights to get a better impression of it

what he said. not a terrible idea but seems like a death sentance for sorc to me, & AT's already cane all other races in pvp

The discussion, which I actively encourage, is about the changes to the Stun spell and its duration with respect to being able to perma stun.
I have the ability now to dynamically change the stun duration reduction factor from 100% down to 50% and currently have it set at 90%. Initially it was at 80%.
This is different to how it has operated in the past. You will need to adjust your game play.
It may work out, it may be better it may be worse. Try it out over time and see.
There was a bug when first introduced that made it worse but that is now fixed.

Now to Walt
Sigh! Please stick to the topic.
I do not mind some interest and even a bit of passion in the debate. It adds life to the topic.
However, please stick to the topic.

Quote :

I also want to point out that the only way that we can get support for this is by letting people know whats going on in game as most people dont go on forums. But it seems that some admin don't appreciate the fact that we have opinions and believe that since their opinions are different they can bully you into not giving your own. I think this is wrong and I also believe that I shouldn't be threatened by an admin because I feel strongly about my opinion.

1) The only broad mechanism I have for communications is the forums or the login message.
2) I am the person who is running the majority of the development here and I have been trying to listen to many opinions.
3) As far as I can recall I have never tried to bully you or any other player in this game, ever. I have been tempted to explode a few times but never actually came apart that I recall.
4) You are entilted to disagree with this specific (or any other idea). You are entitled to your your opinion on it or suggest changes/improvements. I have been listening to them from you and from others.
5) A great many of the ideas introduced into the game and the sprites that came with them have come from players.

And to Darkness, who has also been very passionate about this change

Quote :

and the gods change it but dont even use it? or play as a mortal.

I have a great number of alts, most of whom are unkown and play anonymously so that I can play the game uninterupted. This last two months the times have been down as I concentrated on this release but in a normal month I like to work and play.

Whatever anyone may think, the game is not a democracy. Most players and even many staffers do not know the development plans ahead of time. The Necromancer race was only known by 3 development team members and Bonney (who supplied the sprites). Ideas are generated from many areas, including players in game and on the forums, but ultimately the development team need to make the decisions on what is in and out. That is why we get paid the big bucks. Not eveything that goes in works. Sometimes it can be fixed and other times discarded. On this we do rely heavily on the feedback from the players.

Lets keep the debate focussed on the topic of the merits of the Stun modifications. We are now in the trial and modification phase. It may work, it may need tweeking or it may end up being undone. Just because it is different does not mean it is bad.
Lets try it and see. And give constructive feedback on the actual skill/change.

A new skill, anti stun, may solve part of the problem,

make this skill on player only, did the same thing for stun reduction.

But come on, one on one pvp can never be balanced.

Lets get back the original stun and focus on group pvping.

i don't understand all this jargon. Can it be used effectively in pents?

So, we've found a way to limit casters... but what about ATs who were already over-powered on this server?

It's not a democracy, but common sense is a must.

Stun reduction reduced from 90% to 95%.

Stun will now last longer but will still not be perma stun.

Note stun reduction can be dynamically changed in game by a god from 50% (duration drops by 50% per cast) to 100% (no reduction).

I approve of the ability to change the stun update in-game. This'll allow the gods who decide to run an LQ to prevent a "LQ boss" from being easily killed by...let's say 2 ATs and 1 Warrior hitting it while 1-2 AHs or Sorcs stun it.

A few questions though. Does this affect stun scrolls as well? If not, then how does a stun scroll interact with a player stun? While it would make sense to have a single function for apply the Stun state, I have no idea what changes have been made to the source. Also, I have no idea how Ishtar even programmed the original Stun code much less have a desire to find out. C is a language I don't understand very well. XD Abyss can tell ya that. >.>

In terms of the effect the stun spell from a caster or a scroll is identical.

shinami wrote:

I approve of the ability to change the stun update in-game. This'll allow the gods who decide to run an LQ to prevent a "LQ boss" from being easily killed by...let's say 2 ATs and 1 Warrior hitting it while 1-2 AHs or Sorcs stun it.

I was under the impression that the stun reduction was PVP only and not PVE? Unless usurped thralls shouldnt be considered players? and im even unsure if they are considered players when usurped either.

I don't think stun cares if you're a player or NPC.

I would say redman's got the right idea there. Iirc, LL said somewhere that it was in part to also give a perma-stunned player a chance to recall in PvE for when someone bites off more than they can chew. IE:Ice Pents, UW Pents, Tower. I don't always remember the res for ice, mixed, or most places either. One last question for ya LL. Does this apply to Warcry's stun effect as well?

Warcry is a different skill to Stun and is not affected by the duration reduction factor.

WC stun is much shorter in duration and it is more difficult (although obviously not impossible) for an AT to perma stun a player using WC.