Ideas for balancing the races.

Oldhaus wrote:

Lordlava wrote:

Supaguard wrote:

Interesting.  When are some meaningful changes with the players feedback in mind going to be done and not just "jests"?

It was not meant to be disrespectful.
It was just a feeble attempt at humour.

There is a lot going on in the development space, especially over the Christmas New Year break.

I am loading changes a couple of times a day at the moment (hence all the restarts - apologies to those affected).
Moto is working on his new area and also fixing a string of old and outstanding issues at the same time.

Some of these changes may please some players whilst other will be indifferent or object.

I look forward to seeing these changes exciting indeed. But the main concern that people are voicing within this post is that the Seyan has become weaker than it's former self in relation with the new changes indirectly buffing other races.

DW increased Warriors Damage, Axe gave Templars a passive RNG no cost stun. Shields further increase mods to Sorc and Haras. Hence I proposed the Seyan get a few more shrines.

Other people are concerned that these new spell cap has made it harder for the Seyan to reach 300 mod compared to other races that's don't suffer the same spell penalty. So suggestions have been made to remove the spell penalty.

Someone mentioned that the Seyan got useless Arch skills, and there should be new arch skills made; assuming ones tailored to suit Seyans.

I think these ideas are all plausible, I think my idea is pretty good because it focuses on the Seyans strongest single attribute; the high WV, and the addition of shrines also makes exploration more exciting past Colonel.

The spell penalty removal idea is not bad but it doesn't compensate for the indirect buffs the other races got from shield,DW,axe etc. And I agree with Moto that Seyans can still potentially reach 300mod with drugs and SS gear. Although it is a lot more harder for Seyans to reach the 300 mod compared to some other races.

The idea of new arch skills is pretty interesting, I certainly do think the Seyan has become weaker in skills compared to its former self before the introduction of new arch skills. Originally the Seyan only missed out on War Cry and Concentrate, there's certainly more than 2 they're missing now. This idea is worth thinking over as are the others.

This post deserves more than a Jest response, other players besides me have voiced their opinions passionately. I hope the voice of the mortal players over shadows the natural tendency to be conservative when it comes to balancing races.

Thank you.

I hope you will take no offense from my post but you are pretty much in the wrong. Most "races" cannot reach 300 mod easily even with ss/drugs. Most races now reach 270 easily. You keep comparing seyans to arch haras and arch temps. You are NOT supposed to be as efficient as those races and that is how seyans were built. You can perma stun anything under the sun on a dpot, you can curse anything on a dpot, you can reach 300mod stealth on a gpot. You have the highest perception mod out of most races without and with OE. You have the highest natural WV and if you are champ you have the best weapon in the game. You can easily reach 260-270 mods on dpot on your own spells. Getting bless to 300 mod is manageable and you will get a self 285 power bless. I see no reason why seyans should be made even better. You have 2 highly valuable arch skills in curse2 and sh2 which increase your overall kill speed on top of that monstrous WV.

What you misinterpret is that the power you speak off is based on endgame best in slot gear. Something that most Warlords do not have. If your comparison is made between poorly geared seyans and BIS arch races. You have a flawed view of balance. In reality, I think that seyans are finally balanced in relation to other races. It made no sense that seyans could reach 255 mod EVERY stat on dpot pre cap removal. You were effectively the best class in the game when you are meant to be a hybrid. Now you lag behind in terms of mods by a mere 20-25. Nothing that cripples or even changes overall power in Pve or Pvp.

In my opinion seyans are fine. Seyans were never meant to outpower arch races or even arch mercs in their specilized field. They were meant to provide a generalistic build that included 90% of all skills.

In terms of the jest, it was just that a joke. I hope you realize that LL has always been a serious participant in community building and sharing of information. While you have been the advocate for seyan power increase, many experienced players have also voiced some form of opposition to your topic. If you want, I am willing to make a spreadsheet and test your claims but you will find that the info you have shared is based on mid officer seyan experience and not at a noble fully geared level. I do hope we can keep this topic hot but I really think it should be a no go.

Heres some numbers on what my seyan hits lategame in SS since some of the people here don't own a noble seyan as far as I know.

Seyans in my experience hit like 270ish(255 or so power) on 2 spells in a spelling set+dpot, and about 260 or so weapon skill, with the option of using bless peices heavily and hitting 300(280 or so) bless and 250(240 or so) enhance.
Seyans also get massively more WV, they might as well have another 100 mod EW or so with how good their sword is, I have about 190-200 WV with the +6 my sword gives over normal seyan swords.
Seyans also have magic shield, something warriors don't get access to(templars get harden so meh) this gives them quite significantly more AV than them.

Seyans also get the advantage of having 90 bwias and 90 spells, making them stronger without SS compared to a warrior, which can be usefull in fights if you want to stun or curse without damaging SS gear.

A templar probably hits 270 or so weapon skill(?) with trash spells, but if you get fully spelled up they can reach higher than 300 slightly. They however don't have the advantage of curse(and c2 I guess) like a seyan does.
A harakim can easily hit 300(315 power) bless because its the only spell they need to hit 300 on.
(I don't play harakim or templar too often so meh, not super accurate numbers, just some numbers to compare to that I remember seeing from the past recently)



Now for some suggestions/complaints I have about them.

I think seyans are pretty strong from all of this, BUT I still think they should have their arch skills reconsidered or a new one added, right now they get the following arch skills.
- poison, never pick this its horrible, doesnt do enough/massive mana cost.
- Surround hit 2, penting skill not very usefull elsewhere but its nice to have 1 penting skill
- Blast 2, another penting skill that is kind of usefull in pents/u3 but outside of those it feels bad due to the lower power and massive cost(50-70?) however this skill makes them pent crazy fast for a melee race ontop of sh2. This skill would be quite a bit better on higher power from 1.00 race mod imo, which they don't need EVEN MORE penting speed.
- Curse 2, I personally don't know why they even have this skill(along with warriors) it costs way too much to use(1/6 my mana for a cast, that takes almost a minute to meditate back) and is hard to land due to the low power seyans get on spells without excessive SS gear.

None of these except c2 is good for most of the content in the game, and c2 is really hard to land on strong enemies.

Would it be too strong to make c2 cost only 120 mana instead of 150? this would only be about a 10 mana difference for races with conc which doesn't seem very major to me, but it would help out on warrior/seyans using c2, which is imo a bad arch skill for them due to the cost.

Thanks for the info. Let me clarify something on ATs so people understand. A max BWIAS/axe AT on 315 power bless and gpot gets 271 axe mod. With huge emerald rings they will get 276. In reality, they will not reach 300 easily without investing in either dpots, ss gear or staff. With staff they will get 286 mod on the near best bless ingame. This is a bad argument as you are taking the best melee class in terms of bases and add the "second" best spells on top of it.

Now adding dpot and prison gear, you will reach 300 mods but these conditions are very difficult and prison gear does decay so it is not permanent either. Just clarifying.

Asmodeus wrote:

Oldhaus wrote:

Lordlava wrote:

Supaguard wrote:

Interesting.  When are some meaningful changes with the players feedback in mind going to be done and not just "jests"?

It was not meant to be disrespectful.
It was just a feeble attempt at humour.

There is a lot going on in the development space, especially over the Christmas New Year break.

I am loading changes a couple of times a day at the moment (hence all the restarts - apologies to those affected).
Moto is working on his new area and also fixing a string of old and outstanding issues at the same time.

Some of these changes may please some players whilst other will be indifferent or object.

I look forward to seeing these changes exciting indeed. But the main concern that people are voicing within this post is that the Seyan has become weaker than it's former self in relation with the new changes indirectly buffing other races.

DW increased Warriors Damage, Axe gave Templars a passive RNG no cost stun. Shields further increase mods to Sorc and Haras. Hence I proposed the Seyan get a few more shrines.

Other people are concerned that these new spell cap has made it harder for the Seyan to reach 300 mod compared to other races that's don't suffer the same spell penalty. So suggestions have been made to remove the spell penalty.

Someone mentioned that the Seyan got useless Arch skills, and there should be new arch skills made; assuming ones tailored to suit Seyans.

I think these ideas are all plausible, I think my idea is pretty good because it focuses on the Seyans strongest single attribute; the high WV, and the addition of shrines also makes exploration more exciting past Colonel.

The spell penalty removal idea is not bad but it doesn't compensate for the indirect buffs the other races got from shield,DW,axe etc. And I agree with Moto that Seyans can still potentially reach 300mod with drugs and SS gear. Although it is a lot more harder for Seyans to reach the 300 mod compared to some other races.

The idea of new arch skills is pretty interesting, I certainly do think the Seyan has become weaker in skills compared to its former self before the introduction of new arch skills. Originally the Seyan only missed out on War Cry and Concentrate, there's certainly more than 2 they're missing now. This idea is worth thinking over as are the others.

This post deserves more than a Jest response, other players besides me have voiced their opinions passionately. I hope the voice of the mortal players over shadows the natural tendency to be conservative when it comes to balancing races.

Thank you.

I hope you will take no offense from my post but you are pretty much in the wrong. Most "races" cannot reach 300 mod easily even with ss/drugs. Most races now reach 270 easily. You keep comparing seyans to arch haras and arch temps. You are NOT supposed to be as efficient as those races and that is how seyans were built. You can perma stun anything under the sun on a dpot, you can curse anything on a dpot, you can reach 300mod stealth on a gpot. You have the highest perception mod out of most races without and with OE. You have the highest natural WV and if you are champ you have the best weapon in the game. You can easily reach 260-270 mods on dpot on your own spells. Getting bless to 300 mod is manageable and you will get a self 285 power bless. I see no reason why seyans should be made even better. You have 2 highly valuable arch skills in curse2 and sh2 which increase your overall kill speed on top of that monstrous WV.

What you misinterpret is that the power you speak off is based on endgame best in slot gear. Something that most Warlords do not have. If your comparison is made between poorly geared seyans and BIS arch races. You have a flawed view of balance. In reality, I think that seyans are finally balanced in relation to other races. It made no sense that seyans could reach 255 mod EVERY stat on dpot pre cap removal. You were effectively the best class in the game when you are meant to be a hybrid. Now you lag behind in terms of mods by a mere 20-25. Nothing that cripples or even changes overall power in Pve or Pvp.

In my opinion seyans are fine. Seyans were never meant to outpower arch races or even arch mercs in their specilized field. They were meant to provide a generalistic build that included 90% of all skills.

In terms of the jest, it was just that a joke. I hope you realize that LL has always been a serious participant in community building and sharing of information. While you have been the advocate for seyan power increase, many experienced players have also voiced some form of opposition to your topic. If you want, I am willing to make a spreadsheet and test your claims but you will find that the info you have shared is based on mid officer seyan experience and not at a noble fully geared level. I do hope we can keep this topic hot but I really think it should be a no go.

I agree that the 255 spell cap isn't really a problem but simply harder for the Seyans to reach. And again I don't think that's really a big issue, more of a minor one; like you said lag behind 20 - 25 mod. It is minor but it adds up.

"I hope you will take no offense from my post"

Unfortunately I do, you seem to be on the attack without really reading my post, most of the things you've said that I apparently have done or said isn't true.

"you are pretty much in the wrong. Most "races" cannot reach 300 mod easily even with ss/drugs"

I never said most races can reach 300 mod easily.

" You keep comparing seyans to arch haras and arch temps. You are NOT supposed to be as efficient as those races and that is how seyans were built."

Seyans would never be as efficient as AHs their base stats max at 90 while AHs spells max at 120. If both Seyan and AH had a bless set of 300 mod, every other spell than bless would have a higher mod on an AH over a Seyan. So yeah I never thought Seyans are suppose to be on par with AH or ATs mods.

"You have the highest perception mod out of most races without and with OE."

At some point higher perception mod doesn't make a difference. Same for stealth.

"You have 2 highly valuable arch skills in curse2 and sh2 which increase your overall kill speed on top of that monstrous WV."

I agree with that except the monstrous WV sounds a bit exaggerated.

"If your comparison is made between poorly geared seyans and BIS arch races. You have a flawed view of balance."

Nope I never did that.

"It made no sense that seyans could reach 255 mod EVERY stat on dpot pre cap removal."

I never said that either.

" You were effectively the best class in the game when you are meant to be a hybrid."

Yes we all know Seyans are meant to be jack of all trades and master of none.

"Now you lag behind in terms of mods by a mere 20-25."

Agreed.

" Seyans were never meant to outpower arch races or even arch mercs in their specilized field."

Yep never disputed that, don't think I wrote anywhere that Seyans are suppose to overpower arch mercs in their specialized fields.

"In terms of the jest, it was just that a joke."

Are you giving unnecessary psychological lessons? I never said the jest was more than just a jest. I said this post deserves more than just a jest response i.e an elaborate opinion of the collective opinions by the community who shared their thoughts.

"I hope you realize that LL has always been a serious participant in community building and sharing of information"

Yes I do and that's exactly why I was hoping LL would reply, unfortunately someone else did.

"many experienced players have also voiced some form of opposition to your topic."

Many? Rhetorical question, please don't reply.

" If you want, I am willing to make a spreadsheet and test your claims"

I think you should make a spreadsheet and post it in guides n guides n guides, for the sake of sharing knowledge.

"I do hope we can keep this topic hot"

I do to hope this topic stays hot, we've had some good points and opinions from the players, I hope they will be heard, taken seriously, and be considered.

for Aranock and Sir Tank.

Thank you.

So I've been ranking my seyan up, and here's where I'm at on this discussion:

Currently my Seyan is a general, not quite noble but close. I've maxed Str, Agi, Bless, 2h, and resist. My brave is at 67, will at 60, int at 61, immunity at 72.

On a gpot I have 216 2h, 212 resistance, and 171 immunity. Even with an ice cloak I can barely do mixed... both my warrior and hara (without comp) were easily penting ice by this point. I have no idea if my seyan will be doing better once I go ahead and max BWI, but as of right now it feels weaker than both my warrior and hara did at this point.

Also, for what it's worth, I question the idea of balancing races based on soulstone gear... it's ridiculously annoying to get the way it is now.

I used to prefer immunity to resistance for both my seyan and AT.
I did not care if they cursed or stunned me as they could not hurt me.

I have listened to arguments for rebalancing the races for a long time and in most cases the community is divided between making a particular race stronger or weaker - depending on your playing style.
My personal opinion was that the Warrior was the weakest race but that may have been because I was useless at raising them.
I agree that the Seyans pre-eminence has diminished since arch skills have come in - but I do not believe they are now worse off than other races, just not as far ahead. Not sure how the 300 max cap has influenced this.

Clearly the Necromancer is over powered.
I need to write some code that allows me to change the master templates and all the players using those templates without losing experience already applied. This will take a bit of time but is on my priority list.
As a matter of interest, once that code exists I can then adjust any race but this is not on the cards in the short term.

With all the changes I make they will be trialled and if not successful then reversed or re-tweaked.
The comp max of 3 is one example. Feedback is welcome - just try to keep it positive and by that I do not mean you have to agree with the change.

In the short term I am not planning on changes specific to races, including Seyans. Where is specific skill or spell is not working as originally intended then it will be adjusted in a series of measured changes. These changes will be announced and further changes may be made based on the feedback.

Limitless wrote:

Again, I say raise them to 0%  spell penalty.

Sorcs reach 300 resist easy, and with curse/curse2/stun no one wants the fight them.

AH have a bonus so that puts them near Sorcs with resist gear.

Temps reach 300 axe/2h mod easily and with harden they gain an edge.

Warriors have a 10% boost and with the skull cap raise pulls them even farther from seyans.

Necro is its own class and I'm sure will be nerfed soon to fix it being so overpowered.

Seyans have the same spell penalty and they where made to be the ancient race of astonia. Why do they still suffer from a simple fix when all other caster and Melee races have higher spell bonus?

One simple fix (which shouldn't be an issue to casters because they will ALWAYS have higher spell bonus) is to boost Seyans to 0%. If the gods and admin see that it does affect the race with such a drastic change (not sure why it would) then they can take it back down. Easier fix then what has to be done with necromancer class imo.

Think on it.

I second this.

"With all the changes I make they will be trialled and if not successful then reversed or re-tweaked"

Please consider giving it a shot, try it out make the spell bonus 0%. If after awhile people start to complain that the Seyan is now to strong, revert it back to 0.95%. No dramas.

Thanks.

Limitless wrote:

Again, I say raise them to 0%  spell penalty.

Sorcs reach 300 resist easy, and with curse/curse2/stun no one wants the fight them.

AH have a bonus so that puts them near Sorcs with resist gear.

Temps reach 300 axe/2h mod easily and with harden they gain an edge.

Warriors have a 10% boost and with the skull cap raise pulls them even farther from seyans.

Necro is its own class and I'm sure will be nerfed soon to fix it being so overpowered.

Seyans have the same spell penalty and they where made to be the ancient race of astonia. Why do they still suffer from a simple fix when all other caster and Melee races have higher spell bonus?

One simple fix (which shouldn't be an issue to casters because they will ALWAYS have higher spell bonus) is to boost Seyans to 0%. If the gods and admin see that it does affect the race with such a drastic change (not sure why it would) then they can take it back down. Easier fix then what has to be done with necromancer class imo.

Think on it.

I give this a third vote.

Please consider this at I believe it to be one of the more logical and balanced paths to take without making a drastic change. Give it an opportunity.

Those who agree with this should do the same as me and the Oldhaus before me. Vote this if you agree.

Diablo wrote:

Limitless wrote:

Again, I say raise them to 0%  spell penalty.

Sorcs reach 300 resist easy, and with curse/curse2/stun no one wants the fight them.

AH have a bonus so that puts them near Sorcs with resist gear.

Temps reach 300 axe/2h mod easily and with harden they gain an edge.

Warriors have a 10% boost and with the skull cap raise pulls them even farther from seyans.

Necro is its own class and I'm sure will be nerfed soon to fix it being so overpowered.

Seyans have the same spell penalty and they where made to be the ancient race of astonia. Why do they still suffer from a simple fix when all other caster and Melee races have higher spell bonus?

One simple fix (which shouldn't be an issue to casters because they will ALWAYS have higher spell bonus) is to boost Seyans to 0%. If the gods and admin see that it does affect the race with such a drastic change (not sure why it would) then they can take it back down. Easier fix then what has to be done with necromancer class imo.

Think on it.

I give this a third vote.

I vote against it.

Please consider this as I believe it to be one of the more logical and balanced paths to take without making a drastic change. Give it an opportunity.

Those who agree with this should do the same as me and the Oldhaus before me. Vote this if you agree.

The points presented are almost indecently false. The words reach, easy and the number 300 are all such false points. I do not think most races reach anything to 300 easily without significant work. Either ss gear, dpots, a lot of penting and prison gear. All of which can take hundred of hours.

The problem is not spell bonus and to be honest, if you think that every race can get 300 easy, why are seyans unable to? What will actually change with 5% spell bonus? Well, there is a reason why seyans have this spell penalty. A few years back, they have no penalty and they rampaged. Clan fights were dominated by seyans because of their 111wv sword, their high av, res, imm, stun and stealth. This was before dpots, max cap removal and prison gear but it remained the same. Seyans by design dominate even today. There is nothing in the game that a seyan cannot solo minus shiva. The same can be said about all races. Feels pretty balanced for me.

However, you tend to compare races which makes me think you are talking about pvp. Max stat seyans can curse/stun past 300res with no ss gear or 1 piece. No race can c2 300resist. And no race gets higher wv. What will 5% spell bonus change?

I agree that work needs to be done and I think it should be done on something else than 5% penalty. Think about it, getting this penalty removed effectively says that you have no more issues with the race and invalidates any changes you may want further. I say work on arch skills to make them viable on seyan.

Asmodeus wrote:

Diablo wrote:

Limitless wrote:

Again, I say raise them to 0%  spell penalty.

Sorcs reach 300 resist easy, and with curse/curse2/stun no one wants the fight them.

AH have a bonus so that puts them near Sorcs with resist gear.

Temps reach 300 axe/2h mod easily and with harden they gain an edge.

Warriors have a 10% boost and with the skull cap raise pulls them even farther from seyans.

Necro is its own class and I'm sure will be nerfed soon to fix it being so overpowered.

Seyans have the same spell penalty and they where made to be the ancient race of astonia. Why do they still suffer from a simple fix when all other caster and Melee races have higher spell bonus?

One simple fix (which shouldn't be an issue to casters because they will ALWAYS have higher spell bonus) is to boost Seyans to 0%. If the gods and admin see that it does affect the race with such a drastic change (not sure why it would) then they can take it back down. Easier fix then what has to be done with necromancer class imo.

Think on it.

I give this a third vote.

I vote against it.

Please consider this as I believe it to be one of the more logical and balanced paths to take without making a drastic change. Give it an opportunity.

Those who agree with this should do the same as me and the Oldhaus before me. Vote this if you agree.

The points presented are almost indecently false. The words reach, easy and the number 300 are all such false points. I do not think most races reach anything to 300 easily without significant work. Either ss gear, dpots, a lot of penting and prison gear. All of which can take hundred of hours.

The problem is not spell bonus and to be honest, if you think that every race can get 300 easy, why are seyans unable to? What will actually change with 5% spell bonus? Well, there is a reason why seyans have this spell penalty. A few years back, they have no penalty and they rampaged. Clan fights were dominated by seyans because of their 111wv sword, their high av, res, imm, stun and stealth. This was before dpots, max cap removal and prison gear but it remained the same. Seyans by design dominate even today. There is nothing in the game that a seyan cannot solo minus shiva. The same can be said about all races. Feels pretty balanced for me.

However, you tend to compare races which makes me think you are talking about pvp. Max stat seyans can curse/stun past 300res with no ss gear or 1 piece. No race can c2 300resist. And no race gets higher wv. What will 5% spell bonus change?

I agree that work needs to be done and I think it should be done on something else than 5% penalty. Think about it, getting this penalty removed effectively says that you have no more issues with the race and invalidates any changes you may want further. I say work on arch skills to make them viable on seyan.

Although most of us agree that the spell penalty should be removed, at least you agree work needs to be done to the Seyan i.e arch skills.

One possible arch skill that comes to mind, is one that gives increase chance to crit.

The option for developers to add various levels of crit hits to NPCs is being added.

Whilst I am in there I can also consider changes (additions or subtractions) to Player crits.
No promises....

Maybe "Push".
Some probability that a type of crit hits the other char and pushes them back one space (assuming room to move back)....

I question the prudence of giving a class with such high potential weapon value even more crits. Believe me, it sounds fun and I do love my seyan but even with the current level of crit I sometimes get multiples in a short span of time and nothing really stands a chance against that kind of damage.

Lordlava wrote:

Maybe "Push".
Some probability that a type of crit hits the other char and pushes them back one space (assuming room to move back)....

Neat idea, and maybe I'm just lacking imagination, but I can't think of any utility for this at all.

Typically, when I'm stabbing something I want it to stay where I can stab it, if it moves a block away then I have to walk towards it to resume stabbing right? Also, what happens if other things are hitting me, I probably get a could not escape message and turn to hit another enemy instead of the one I was originally trying to kill.

It could also cause other problems, like if I hit it and it moves back a block and I follow other enemies see me and start to attack.

Bill wrote:

I question the prudence of giving a class with such high potential weapon value even more crits..

Temps get vic crits, wars get poisen crits/ double crits. Come on... The red cape Seyan needs some love too. Perhaps instead of poison spell, give TH poison crits, it makes more sense being a red cape. It also makes sense to give Seyans some form of extra crit because their specialty is their TH. (I know their jack of all trades are also their special thing)

Poison would actually be a good idea. Would give the long forgotten 2H sword a reason to be used again.

Limitless wrote:

Poison would actually be a good idea. Would give the long forgotten 2H sword a reason to be used again.

Aside from the 111wv right?

Asmodeus wrote:

Limitless wrote:

Poison would actually be a good idea. Would give the long forgotten 2H sword a reason to be used again.

Aside from the 111wv right?

I think they mean all 2h swords in general, but do they really need a third penting skill which does the same thing as a skill they already have? They already go fast for a melee race.

I do think it would be cool if 2h weapons got some sort of special crit tho, just not one covered by another type of weapon already.

Lazywarrior wrote:

Asmodeus wrote:

Limitless wrote:

Poison would actually be a good idea. Would give the long forgotten 2H sword a reason to be used again.

Aside from the 111wv right?

I think they mean all 2h swords in general, but do they really need a third penting skill which does the same thing as a skill they already have? They already go fast for a melee race.

I do think it would be cool if 2h weapons got some sort of special crit tho, just not one covered by another type of weapon already.

How about:
Weapon Break - Reduces the target's WV for a duration
Armor Break - Reduces the target's AV for a duration

Yes, I meant for all 2H.

Asmodeus, I sense some hostility from you, not sure why.

Let's see you idea of change skills.

SH2 raised would raise all melee, I haven't heard any melee complain about the skill.

C2 seems fine to me, no real boost or nerf there.

Poison, not really a skill I enjoy but it has its place and seems ok.

B2 - also a skill that AH have, great to have and clearing areas.

Your theory behind fixing skills instead of the idea of taking the spell penalty from seyans is a moot point and I see no logic behind fixing skills. If so, it would then again affect casters.

Think outside the box a little bit try to think of creative ideas. Compulsion is still being tweaked and I do agree when I was a Magen penting top 5 UW with a ton of comps, there's a real issue.

Wind wrote:

Lazywarrior wrote:

Asmodeus wrote:

Limitless wrote:

Poison would actually be a good idea. Would give the long forgotten 2H sword a reason to be used again.

Aside from the 111wv right?

I think they mean all 2h swords in general, but do they really need a third penting skill which does the same thing as a skill they already have? They already go fast for a melee race.

I do think it would be cool if 2h weapons got some sort of special crit tho, just not one covered by another type of weapon already.

How about:
Weapon Break - Reduces the target's WV for a duration
Armor Break - Reduces the target's AV for a duration

I like this a lot!

Wind wrote:

Armor Break - Reduces the target's AV for a duration

This is officially a no comment on this suggestion as to whether or not is may or may not be under development.
Clearly I know nothing and I am sticking to this story.

My office is being swept for Wind listening devices and key loggers.

Lordlava wrote:

Wind wrote:

Armor Break - Reduces the target's AV for a duration

This is officially a no comment on this suggestion as to whether or not is may or may not be under development.
Clearly I know nothing and I am sticking to this story.

My office is being swept for Wind listening devices and key loggers.

inbuilt passive TH random chance to proc

Oldhaus wrote:

Lordlava wrote:

Wind wrote:

Armor Break - Reduces the target's AV for a duration

This is officially a no comment on this suggestion as to whether or not is may or may not be under development.
Clearly I know nothing and I am sticking to this story.

My office is being swept for Wind listening devices and key loggers.

LMAO

Limitless wrote:

Yes, I meant for all 2H.

Asmodeus, I sense some hostility from you, not sure why.

Let's see you idea of change skills.

SH2 raised would raise all melee, I haven't heard any melee complain about the skill.

C2 seems fine to me, no real boost or nerf there.

Poison, not really a skill I enjoy but it has its place and seems ok.

B2 - also a skill that AH have, great to have and clearing areas.

Your theory behind fixing skills instead of the idea of taking the spell  penalty from seyans is a moot point and I see no logic behind fixing skills. If so, it would then again affect casters.

Think outside the box a little bit try to think of creative ideas. Compulsion is still being tweaked and I do agree when I was a Magen penting top 5 UW with a ton of comps, there's a real issue.

No hostility so no need to be an astronaut about it. Actually I am proposing solutions to the main complaint that melees have; trouble keeping up with exp gain compared to spellcasters. Improvement in sh2 may very well improve capacity of all melee classes while maintaining the general spread between pure/hybrid and seyan. A 5% spell bonus is pretty crappy overall and would not fix much to be honest. I don't think people will be satisfied with a 10 mod increase in spell power. thats like 2-3 mod/av/wv. pretty meh. I would rather options that increase functionality. It is not hostility but I dislike all or nothing points. The reason why TH never got used after axe was introduced was because of the vic crit. Adding 23 wv was the balancing factor for seyans not getting vic crit.

If you feel sh2 too is not a good avenue that is fine. I am all for proposing ideas and if you look at my posting history, I have done that more often than not.

Asmodeus wrote:

Adding 23 wv was the balancing factor for seyans not getting vic crit.

Sounds strange so I'm going to point this out:

In the old days,
for Templars, the best weapons were Ice TH and FoH, at 80wv
for Seyans, their swords were at 95wv.
So, 15wv was the original balancing on the low weapon skill of Seyan or to show that they are the heroic race.

And then after Vic Crits came in,
for Templars, the best weapon became Plat/Ice TH Axe, at 88wv,
for Seyans, their swords became 111wv.
There is a 23wv difference, but mentioned above, 15 out of 23 was the original part,
leaving us the conclusion of:

Seyans got extra 8wv than Templars for not having Vic Crits.

I think Vic Crits are way bigger